Interview: Jacob Kendall

Jeromy Johnson I am excited to welcome my guest today, Jacob Kendall. Jacob completed his Master of Divinity, but that's only part of his story. He also holds a PhD in gerontology, a master's in social work, and a master's in public health. He's an entrepreneur who has launched several online businesses. He's a lifelong learner, fascinated by everything from quantum mechanics and evolution to ancient history and global health. Jacob is also a survivor of two open heart surgeries and ongoing medical challenges, which means that he speaks with both professional insight and a hard earned personal perspective. He brings both depth and humanity to this conversation. So welcome Jacob. Glad you can join us.

Jacob Kendall Yeah. Thanks, Jeremy. I've been looking forward to the conversation.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah, absolutely. I have too. just so our listeners can get a feel for a little bit more about you. Could you kind of give a high level overview of your spiritual and just kind of personal journey so far?

Jacob Kendall Yeah. Um, one of the most important parts of my identity, especially my professional identity, is long standing. As a child, I wanted to grow up to be a true Renaissance person. And that's why I've gotten degrees in a few different fields. Um, and I read very widely because to me, uh, it's more important for me to be a jack of all trades than it is to be an expert of one. And I am a very strong advocate for having more interdisciplinary or multi-dimensional approaches in every field. And we need specialists for sure. I'm really glad that the people who, uh, the surgeons who replaced my my valve twice were excellent at that one particular thing. So we need experts for sure. But my favorite thing is to connect the dots between different topics. Um, as a gerontologist, I usually, uh, like I would challenge my students or, you know, I'll tell when I'm on a podcast or do speaking like, hey, let's play The Six Degrees of Aging as, uh, inspired by the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. So give me any topic and I can connect it to the fact that we are living in a rapidly aging world. Um, so that's that's what I like doing. So when it comes to any kind of question that I can answer, I'm always going to go back to that. Okay. What what different perspectives can I pull into here. What different lenses can I look at this question, this issue with um, and that's I think it probably shines through in most conversations I have.

Jeromy Johnson Nice. Nice. When, uh. So as a kid growing up, what did what did that journey look like to a little bit of where you're you're now. You're now at.

Jacob Kendall Well, I knew that I wanted to travel. The travel around the world from a pretty young age. I didn't start really regularly doing that until I got to college, so that was definitely a big part of it. I just wanted to see different cultures, different places, different geographies. Um, I grew up a musician and I dabbled in several different instruments, and I nerded out on animal behavior and weather and outer space. Um, I guess I guess I should have meteorology, so I guess it just kind of, it kind of shone through in a number of different ways. And I grew up in the church as well, um, Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, which is a more progressive Baptist and, uh, in a household as well, where questioning things and exploring our own interests were anywhere from not discouraged to openly encouraged.

Jeromy Johnson Oh, good.

Jacob Kendall Yeah. So that's, you know, all those things play a role.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah. So you didn't grow up in an environment where spirituality was necessarily closed off, like, hey, you got to toe this line or you're not allowed to ask questions.

Jacob Kendall Yeah, Icould have the conversation that I know you and I are going to have, uh, with any of the pastors that I had at my home church without without feeling nervous about it. So maybe that answers your question. Uh.

Jeromy Johnson That's good. I feel like that's a great that's a great gift, you know, because that's not always that's not always the case.

Jacob Kendall I know.

Jeromy Johnson where have you traveled to?

Jacob Kendall Uh, I did my my doctoral research in Malawi, in southern Africa, and I, I was, um, I'm very interested in sub-Saharan Africa in general. I've been to a few countries there. I've been all over Western Europe. I did a backpack backpacking trip there, uh, while in grad school, and I've been to China, Japan. I did an internship in India, um, and a few places in Central America, twenty five total. Uh,

Jeromy Johnson Man. That's awesome.

Jacob Kendall both mainland China and Taiwan. So if you ask people from mainland China, it's only twenty four countries, but whatever.

Jeromy Johnson How has that shaped your worldview of humanity? Maybe our interconnectedness.

Jacob Kendall Yeah, it's been interesting. I was I was surprised when I was in India, which is a very pluralistic society, and I spoke to Muslims and Jains and Buddhists, and the basic language they were using for God is the same language that I grew up using as well, that Christians in the West use, and I found that to be really fascinating. So there definitely is that some of that, you know, basic humanity. But it's also like, and I know that there are people who are international missionaries all over the world, and I think their main point is evangelization. So maybe they disagree with the following point. I can only speak from my perspective,

Jeromy Johnson That's all you can do.

Jacob Kendall right?

Jacob Kendall And I just don't see how you can go to another part of the world and see someone who lives life in a very different way than you. They're healthy, they're happy. They're successful. They live in a in a society that has been around for centuries. And like, how are you going to sit here and tell me, like, they're doing this one major thing wrong? I think we I think we need to always be reminding ourselves to, to recognize the humility in any situation. And traveling is one of those, you know, um, um, it became obvious and I get a lot of this in global health as well. My, my MPH was focused on international health and development. I was a professor of global health for a few years, and it's known as the white man's burden. You know, for for a few decades, you had these large, uh, North American and European nonprofits going to change, going, going to help these so-called global South countries. But really, the solutions that they need are local. They already have the power and talent and skills that they're on the ground. We don't we don't need to. Like we're not going to give them some antidote to all their problems as, as a, as a white man. Right. And I think it's the same with the church as well.

Jeromy Johnson Hmm.

Jacob Kendall Um, and when I, when I travel to these places, I, I just realized that that was the case. Like, I'm here in your community. I should humble myself to realize I have much more to learn from you than you do from me. So there's got to be that humility there.

Jeromy Johnson So you've really learned to question that white savior mentality of us coming in and either saving people or helping people or.

Jacob Kendall Yeah. Yeah. It needs to be toppled.

Jeromy Johnson And I feel like you've actually, when you've traveled what I, what I get from you is that you've been a part of those communities because there's people that travel, right? But they just go from resort to resort to resort, and they're never really in the actual community with

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson the people. there just kind of replacing an American experience in a luxurious area. And so you've sounds like you've really like getting gotten in there in their culture and on the ground and stuff. And I can really see how that's helped shape you rather than just fly over.

Jacob Kendall Yeah. For sure. I have a lot of criticisms of short term missions, but I don't think that's the point of this conversation. But it's it's getting at the heart of what you just mentioned.

Jeromy Johnson  So you currently are working in health advocacy, aging, chronic disease and caregiving, correct?

Jacob Kendall Yeah, I've had two open heart surgeries and I'm thirty nine, so I'm not an older adult myself. But most people who have had open heart surgeries, most people who have complex medical needs are older adults. And that kind of gives me, from the personal standpoint, uh, I can say, hey, I know some things that older adults have to go through because most of these things aremore common in older age. On the on the professional side, uh, you know, my my PhD is technically in interdisciplinary aging studies. That's too many syllables. So I just say gerontology. That's the definition of gerontology anyway. And it I have been trained to view the process of aging and all of its implications through many, many disciplinary lenses. Um, again, that's how I prefer it. And I think, uh, a few takeaway points that I have for anyone listening, uh, whenever I talk, uh, here and elsewhere, um, I think that we should be more pro aging. Uh, you know, not aging isn't a disease. It's not something to be avoided.

Jeromy Johnson Yes.

Jacob Kendall I think gray hair is beautiful. I all there's there's abundant research that shows that that when, when we're constantly exposed to advertising for anti-wrinkles or dying or hair or whatever, that that conditions us to believe that older adults are not attractive, that being old is equated with not being attractive. It's a social conditioning. It's not a biological thing to believe that. And so I really want to counter that. Um, I do not believe that aging is the enemy. I do not believe that death is the enemy. I think we have a lot to work on when it comes to those things. Ageism shows up. It's pernicious. It shows up everywhere. Um, and I also am an advocate for people with chronic disease, because our health care system here in the US has, uh, it leaves a lot to be desired.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah. You can probably go on about that for a whole nother hour if needed.

Jacob Kendall Yes, yes I could.

Jeromy Johnson. That's very interesting. You bring up about aging because we do. And not only aging from just the process. Right. Like, oh I have gray hairs, I have wrinkles, I have a little bit of belly fat, I have this or that. But also when you get to a certain age, we just hide you away. Like we just don't even want to see you or take care of you.

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson Can you just talk more about that? Because I'm fascinated by that.

Jacob Kendall Yeah, it's interesting to compare us to other societies. Um, you know, we're highly individualistic as opposed to collectivist cultures like in East Asia. Um, the global South, you know, South America, much of South America and sub-Saharan Africa. These various collectivist cultures. And I'll focus on the East Asia here for a moment where, you know, these cultures celebrate aging rather than try to hide from it. And they venerate their elders, and they greatly value that wisdom that comes with aging. And they tend to have positive age beliefs. Whereas here in the US we have negative age beliefs. And there's actuallyresearch showing that having positive age beliefs affects your life expectancy more than smoking, drinking alcohol, hypertension and things like that. Like, is that important?

Jeromy Johnson Interesting.

Jacob Kendall Uh, it's I know it's this. You're like, how does an attitude have that much of an effect? But it really it really does.

Jeromy Johnson So the irony is we resist aging and therefore we age faster.

Jacob Kendall It causes us to be stressed and anxious about it, and that stress and anxiety causes us to age more quickly. Yeah, and it can do a lot for us. Even people who have genes that predispose them to like Alzheimer's, for example, you can even have positive age beliefs and counteract that. So it's very, very powerful.

Jeromy Johnson That totally makes sense. And it's. Yeah, it's sad. And and and I fall for it too, you know, I, you know, I'm I'm guilty of that for sure. Not only with myself but with with with elders. And I think when you grow up in this fishbowl, you can't you can't help but be influenced by that to a

Jacob Kendall Absolutely.

Jeromy Johnson certain degree.

Jacob Kendall It runs in our marrow.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah, yeah. Then with chronic disease, it's with the health insurance. I mean, they're incentivized for people not to use it. And so when people

Jacob Kendall Oh, yeah.

Jeromy Johnson use it, they do all they can to slow that down.

Jacob Kendall Oh,

Jacob Kendall yeah.

Jeromy Johnson As you're working with, with elderly and with, um, chronic disease, imagine that there are examples of love and grace in that environment, whether it's with family or with doctors or nurses or even yourself. Have you seen other examples of grace or kindness or love show up in those kind of environments as you experience aging, disease, and caregiving?

Jacob Kendall I think one obvious industry I wish I didn't have to refer to it as an industry context. That's better.

Jacob Kendall One.

Jacob Kendall One obvious context to bring up with the, you know, the intersections of aging and end of life. Um, these deeper spiritual questions is hospice and

Jacob Kendall anything around dying and death? Um, one of my favorite quotes and I keep on meaning to look it up when it was, it was many decades ago of William Gladstone, a former British prime minister. I'm going to paraphrase. I'll get it pretty close, but not exact. To me, this is a quote. Show me the ways in which people treat dead bodies, and I will

Jacob Kendall tell you with mathematical exactness, the level of compassion and empathy in that society. It's powerful.

Jeromy Johnson Wow.

Jacob Kendall I think we can take a step back and say,

Jeromy Johnson Wow.

Jacob Kendall tell me how a society treats those who are dying, and

Jacob Kendall I can show you with mathematical exactness, the level of compassion or etc. I think we can

Jacob Kendall take a step back

Jeromy Johnson Wow.

Jacob Kendall from that and say, show me the way in which you treat older adults. And I can still like, you know, it's just it's

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall just a couple steps back there. And I think that that people who are in hospice and in, I call it an industry off the bat because unfortunately, nursing homes and anything that's in a facility, anything that involves the medical

Jeromy Johnson Yep.

Jacob Kendall industrial complex could sometimes profit is what's driving it. But there are many, many people, I would say most who are working in some kind of end of life setting. Chaplains as well, uh, hospice, palliative care, etc. that those people have a certain wisdom and insight that the rest of us need to be listening to. And if you can have grace and empathy in that kind of setting, then I think that you can have it anywhere with anyone. So that is a context in which I think is a very good one to examine. When it comes to the question you you asked.

Jeromy Johnson How do we begin to change that, that mentality? hHow do we become a more compassionate and gracious nation, right? it has to start with us first and then it has to spread to each, you know, like you can't just change a nation, you can't change that belief. But it has to start with us. 

Jacob Kendall think to kind of expand your point. Um. We should be respectful of the variety of ways in which people celebrate life or grieve or deal with the disposition of bodies, and that diversity is growing. But but to get to your point, like, I think we should be having conversations like this.

Jeromy Johnson Mhm.

Jacob Kendall Um, definitely be more pro-aging, uh, you know, uh, I don't think the following is bold, but maybe it sounds that way to some people. I think ageism is much more acceptable in our society than

Jeromy Johnson Mhm.

Jacob Kendall racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism are. And those things are terrible. They're really bad. They're getting the attention right now. Ageism is like the last allowable, uh, discrimination. Right?

Jeromy Johnson Mhm.

Jacob Kendall And people just don't really question it. Like, of course that's okay. Um, I think that we need to work on that. And, uh, you know, should we be talking about how should we be regulating, uh, harmful advertising more when it comes to anti-aging stuff like that? Uh, I think that we need to be encouraging conversations about our own mortality. I firmly believe that the more that we are willing to talk about our mortality, it actually increases our longevity and healthspan. And that sounds counterintuitive, but I think that it's I think that that is one hundred percent true. There's a negative relationship there, um, between, uh, embracing our mortality in our, in our lifespan. Um, so or positive relationship between those things. I think that it really begins with, with creating and maintaining a nurturing an environment in which we have these kinds of discussions. You know, I. I Support. I don't think that it would work if we just snapped our fingers and had a policy about it. I want to be very clear about

Jacob Kendall that,

Jacob Kendall but

Jacob Kendall I.

Jacob Kendall I support physician assisted dying if it can be done right. But

Jeromy Johnson Mhm.

Jacob Kendall those conversations are automatically shut down by so many people, as if that's just an automatic evil. If we're going to shut down those conversations, then we're not going to be able to learn and gain all the insight we can out of these issues. Right.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall Um, so even in some of my seminary classes, I learned that, that if I'm interpreting this correctly, that even Christianity sees death as the enemy. I disagree with that. I don't think that death is the enemy. Um.

Jeromy Johnson I would agree with that statement that um I mean even the notion which, which I don't believe anymore, but even the, the traditional notion of hell, which was an eternal death, right. That is

Jeromy Johnson the enemy that Jesus came to save us from. And it's interesting you take that away and people are like, oh, well, what is the gospel mean? And what does Jesus mean

Jacob Kendall I know,

Jeromy Johnson if

Jeromy Johnson that death isn't there and then and then that too is like, you know, when we die, like that's it. You know, you're you're you're cut off from choice. So yeah, there's there's still a lot of fear with death. I feel like with that dude. Yeah. These this is fascinating. Um, and you yourself had two open heart surgeries, so you came. I mean, that's about as close as you can really come, you know, like, there's some some death experience a little bit with that, I imagine. I haven't had an open heart surgery, but what was that like going into it with your with your knowledge? Has that helped shape some of your beliefs that you have now?

Jacob Kendall Yeah, in a couple different ways. Um, a aortic valve disease. It runs. Excuse me. Runs rampant in my mom's side of the family. I've had two

Jacob Kendall surgeries that have been eleven total, and there are a few people who have who could have it in the future. Um, and so I've, I've seen a few family members die, either directly or indirectly from that. That's terrifying for me.

Jacob Kendall Um, you know, so, yeah, I definitely am. I've been forced to say, see how this, like to face my own mortality. Um, and I also you mentioned what was the wording that you used. Uh, I don't remember what it was at the beginning when you were giving my introduction, you mentioned my two heart surgeries. But the way that I say it, um, which is a parallel to the way you worded it, is, uh, the wisdom that I've gained from that is very expensive wisdom indeed. Uh,

Jeromy Johnson Hmm

Jacob Kendall um.

Jacob Kendall And I want to make sure not to waste it, which is why I'm doing what I'm doing right now. If other

Jacob Kendall people

Jacob Kendall can benefit from in some kind of way, from the wisdom and insight I gained from those experiences, then great, then it's not. It's not wasted. And I'll go ahead and say that, uh, I actually get a lot of, um, I'm not I'm not going to criticize. I'm not going to say someone's wrong if they get a lot of comfort from the very opposite, because I know that it's true. But I get a lot of comfort from the idea that we live in this ginormous infinite universe and

Jacob Kendall we are infinitesimally small.

Jacob Kendall Um,

Jacob Kendall and in evolutionary time, the difference between someone living a year or forty years or one hundred years is doesn't matter.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall And when I when I learned that I needed to have my second surgery, um, by that time I was already very deeply entrenched Darwinian, uh, fan of evolution, completely convinced by by the science there. But I leaned on that to be completely honest. Like,

Jacob Kendall you know what? If I die early because of this in evolutionary

Jacob Kendall time, it's not going to make that much of a difference. And that gave me a lot of comfort. And, you know, I've often brought that up in questions on, uh, grace and spirituality and faith. And I'm like, in my opinion, if any God who's worth worshipping is a God that is, uh. allows various means of being comfortable with the nature of the universe. And for quite a while now, uh, evolution has offered me a lot of that and more recently, quantum mechanics. And I'm in a very amateur and nerdy kind of way, exploring how those two intersect. But, um, yeah, that was definitely a lot of thoughts that went through my head. Was that the, uh, seeming randomness and the cosmological kind of approach to it, if that makes sense.

Jeromy Johnson Mm. No. Yeah. You were talking in our conversation. Um, before we went on here about how with evolution, you were almost, almost heading towards a direction of atheism. Atheism, where, like, just there is no god, but then you you started to get into which which it cracks me up that, like, quantum mechanics is your hobby, right? Like, that's just that's just a lot about you. 

Jacob Kendall Not

Jacob Kendall not

Jacob Kendall the math,

Jacob Kendall not the math.

Jeromy Johnson Not the math part. but then how your your exploration of the quantum sciences changed that. Can you lean into that?

Jacob Kendall They let me, let me let me think of how to explain this. Um. All right, well, one thing I said to you, and this is not this is not going to be my only response to what you just said, but I'll go ahead and rehash what I did say to you before you hit record. Um, in my opinion, I know a lot of physicists will just, you know, uh, ignore this, this thinking, uh, I'm not coming up with this. There there are those who, I mean, I've read fallen on the coattails of giants or the shoulders or whatever. Uh, I'm not coming up with all this stuff. I just happen to agree with people who have. If we push quantum mechanics far enough, in my opinion, we are forced to at least consider what the implications that this has for so-called metaphysics. Um.

Jeromy Johnson And what do you mean by metaphysics? Sorry, metaphysics for those who don't know what that is.

Jacob Kendall If there's any aspect of the functioning of the universe, someone might put the soul into this category that is not explicable by the laws of physics, chemistry and biology. Then I guess I would put that into metaphysics.

Jeromy Johnson So kind of some of the unexplainable.

Jacob Kendall Some of them, yeah.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall Um, that's the best that I can do with that right now.

Jeromy Johnson Okay.

Jacob Kendall Uh, I don't see metaphysics and physical, metaphysical and physical as distinct categories. In fact,

Jacob Kendall I don't see anything as distinct categories. I see it all as a continuous spectrum.

Jacob Kendall So that's part of my my response to you. Another part is, even before I learned about quantum mechanics, um, I got to asking myself, Why is it that I know what it was? I read Richard Dawkins book, The Selfish Gene. You know, for so long we believed that the important unit, the important unit of analysis and evolution was the organism or the species. But he actually posited, and I agree with it. The important unit is the gene. And we are just a bag of bones that carry these genes.

Jacob Kendall We serve our genes, not the other way around. And I got to asking, it makes sense from a certain degree why we when we imagine God, we imagine God as a human. We anthropomorphize the crap out of God.

Jeromy Johnson For sure. Yeah. Not just a human. A guy like a he. Yeah. Let's get real here.

Jacob Kendall Yeah. Yes. And and a white and a white. You know,

Jeromy Johnson Yeah,

Jacob Kendall people

Jeromy Johnson exactly.

Jacob Kendall get up in arms when we people paint some black Jesus or whatever. I'm like, whatever. Anyway. But if you look at ancient Christianity and even some of when when Christianity spread to the East initially and eventually died out, and now it's spreading there again. Um, there there are many forms of collectivist Christianity. I mean, I don't think that the Christianity that Jesus and Paul talked about was individualistic. It was very, very community based.

Jacob Kendall And then so when you combine that, when we zoom out from the individual to the level of the community, when we zoom lower than the individual to the level of the gene, it got me thinking, why do we always and only and exclusively? It makes sense that we would primarily do. But why do we pretty much exclusively talk about God on the individual level? Are

Jacob Kendall you do you have a personal relationship

Jeromy Johnson Yes.

Jacob Kendall with Christ? Are you is are you is your personal individual soul saved? And I'm like, okay, if God is truly infinite and eternal, that means that there are things going on with God at the level of the gene and the level of the state and the level of the planet and the solar system. And when you zoom way down at the quantum level. Otherwise,

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall you can't say that God is eternal and infinite. You can't. It doesn't make logical sense, but we are so hell bent on thinking that we humans are the special thing and nothing else matters. I'm like

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall no. If God is really what you say that God is, then we gotta start. In my opinion, we need to start having questions about what does it mean for God to function at these other levels. Let's let's de-center ourselves

Jacob Kendall for just a few minutes at least and ask those kinds of questions. So, um, first, evolution, especially quantum mechanics, kind of opened me up to those questions.

Jeromy Johnson Mm. But everything's kind of united in one and. Yeah, I mean, it goes to even the level where people think like if there's life outside of Earth, like, you know, extraterrestrial, then like,

Jeromy Johnson that can't happen because we're so special. Like,

Jacob Kendall I

Jeromy Johnson this

Jacob Kendall know.

Jeromy Johnson is this is it. And, you know, obviously people look at the breadth of the universe and go like the odds that there is not other life out there is a trillion to one like, but it's so we're

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson so narcissistic here on this planet that, um.

Jacob Kendall Extremely.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah, exactly. It's not just, uh, some of our. Yeah, exactly. Well, um, so I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about near death experiences.

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson And this is someone who studies and they've collected evidence from from so many sources and so many people, not just religious, just just anyone who's had some of that near-death experiences and the the number one driving thing that people have experienced when, when they've had that near-death experience and have come back was the sense of oneness. And he said, time and time and time and time and time and time again, there's this unifying experience that people have that they just felt one. They just felt one with, with everything, with all that energy. And I think like that is such a beautiful, um, expression that I think physics and, and quantum sciences are starting to discover is just how everything is not separated, like separations and illusion.

Jacob Kendall Oh, yeah? Well, a lot of things are illusions. Yeah. I'd like to say a couple of comments on NDEs, if you don't mind. Um, the other one, the other experience that I'll put into that category is, um, taking psilocybin. Uh, I have heard and I've been told by a personal friend that when you take psilocybin shrooms, um, that you also have this kind of out of body experience that you, uh, ineffable that you cannot explain is impossible to explain.

Jeromy Johnson Mhm.

Jacob Kendall And my understanding is that NDEs and the studies on psilocybin kind of come to those kinds of conclusions. So I'll present what I understand to be both sides of the coin on the one hand, neuro neuro neurological studies have so-called explained that that there are features of the brain that cause that kind of experience to happen, and it makes sense. Um, and so therefore they kind of write off these more metaphysical implications of NDEs, for example. On the other hand, the question I have for that is. Why are our brains capable of that? Because it doesn't make sense. There's got to be something there. Um, you

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall know, I mean, we don't know what the seed of consciousness is. We don't know. We know

Jeromy Johnson No.

Jacob Kendall that the sense of a self exists, but we don't know where it is. We have no idea what it is. And

Jeromy Johnson No.

Jacob Kendall I'm not

Jeromy Johnson It's.

Jacob Kendall saying we won't eventually discover that. I mean, the human brain is remarkably complex, and we're far from fully understanding it. But, I mean, let's let's think about this. What scientific studies have shown is that our brains actually make decisions on a given phenomena phenomenon before we realize that we made that decision, which I think one thing that does is throw open the doors of, uh, the concept of free will. But the reason I mentioned that

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall is because our brains do some weird shit, and. There's, uh, I think it's bold to just write anything off

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall wholesale, given that we have these things we don't yet understand. And again, I'm not saying that science won't eventually understand what the seed of the self is, what where the consciousness is. I'm just saying we don't have it right now. We don't

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall understand that right now. And our brains are making decisions before we even consciously realize that that that happens. Um, and you mentioned an illusion. Our brains are, uh. What did you say is an illusion? Uh oh. That things are separate. Like

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall our brains.

Jeromy Johnson The

Jacob Kendall Our

Jeromy Johnson separatist.

Jacob Kendall brains do that. Our brains do that so that we can understand what we're seeing. Right?

Jeromy Johnson Mm.

Jacob Kendall Uh, Even solid objects don't look. The electrons are still far enough. I mean, the atoms are still far enough apart. Where, you know, we're filling in that space to make it look more solid. I'm not using the best scientific terminology, but like, our brains fill in stuff all the time. We're doing that with sociological things as well. When you first meet someone, if you see someone with tattoos versus someone with a suit, you're feeling all kinds of information and making assumptions about those people. That's what your brain does

Jeromy Johnson Mhm.

Jacob Kendall in order to make sense of the universe. And our brains are doing this all the time now. It's a magnificent feature of our brains, but good Lord, does it get us in trouble a lot of the time, too?

Jeromy Johnson Yeah it does. And so back to your aging. Like we're already predisposed and thinking about things about aging before it even enters our head. Right. Because it's just

Jacob Kendall Absolutely.

Jeromy Johnson it's just hardwired in there. And yet what's, what's interesting is you know, we talked about the narcissism of our planet and of humanity as just in general. But even within our thoughts, like we feel like if we feel something, if we think something, therefore it's true,

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson you know? And so as you look at meditation and just kind of even or mushrooms and just stepping out of yourself for a little bit to have maybe a third person view of your life,

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson like it's so helpful where you just you're noticing your thoughts, you're noticing this. And it just I think so kind of where where I'm coming from. Just so you know, I know that we've talked is I do have this feeling that everything is one. And when I talk about grace.

Jacob Kendall Either

Jeromy Johnson So

Jacob Kendall the singularity, I love

Jeromy Johnson yeah,

Jacob Kendall it.

Jeromy Johnson yeah. Where everything and I feel like it just starts at a like, don't even go to the quantum level. Can we just get to the point to where we're like, we're just one human race? Like, I feel like if we can just get to that point where we just view each other as co-equal humans, and we're one human race. So let's let's get along. Let's, you know, um, like, let's just start there. Let's not even go to the quantum level of energy and protons and all that kind of stuff. But like, let's just view each other as humans. And for me, coming out of an evangelical background where there was different categories of humans, there were, uh, saved humans, there were unsaved humans, right? There were humans that God loves because of their belief. And now there's humans that God doesn't love because of their non-belief, loves them, but he can't actually do anything with that love. Um, so that kind of thing, when I started unwrapping that and moving away from that, I saw my brother and sister and everyone.

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson And to me, that's just such a more relaxing place. I can approach people a lot more kindly, um, things of that nature. And I imagine, too, with your with your two heart surgeries and coming close and having family members die. Um, I would think like that. It sounds like to me like that has driven a lot of your passions. Like you're you're really into the disease and the aging and the caregiving, and you're into some of this, this quantum physics and mechanics and stuff. And that just seems to align with some of your experiences as I'm hearing it with your near-death, um, or your your open heart surgeries and having family members die like you've been really put into touch at a human level with what this life means and what you can do with this life. And, um. My am I. Am I correct in that assumption as far as those experiencing experiences driving some of this that you're going after?

Jacob Kendall Yeah. For sure. You know, and what you, um, talk about with And I think I know what you mean by this. Um, we obviously have to be careful about the language that we use, right?

Jeromy Johnson For

Jacob Kendall And you

Jeromy Johnson sure.

Jacob Kendall said we're all part of the human race. We, of course, don't want to tell that to a black person who experiences a lot of racism, because that's just going to, rightfully so, piss them off. I think that you're you're thinking you're imagining a universe in which that could be true. And so, um, you know, one of the things that I like about. Uh, studying aging is that, you know, I'm always going to be a white man. Um, I'm

Jeromy Johnson Yep.

Jacob Kendall always going to have the. Having grown up in a Protestant background, right? I mean, in many ways, except for my disability, I'm a member of the most privileged group on the planet in all of human history. But I will get older. I will one day be an older adult. And that's true of everyone. Um, you know, they say the death is a great equalizer. Well, aging is really close to being the great equalizer because

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall everyone gets older, time only moves forward. Um, I think that that's also an illusion, but that's another conversation. So that's one of the things I like about it is, uh, you know, I wish that we lived in a society in which we could recognize these things that you're talking about. We don't. And

Jeromy Johnson We

Jacob Kendall therefore

Jeromy Johnson don't.

Jacob Kendall we have to respond to those issues in a in a particular way. And, of course, in our unprecedentedly polarized times right now, uh, many people were not we are not responding in the ways that we need to, um, and listen, we're walking around with our hunter gatherer brains. It made sense when someone was on the African savanna, and they saw that someone was approaching them from who was from another tribe. It makes sense that there was that really strict, simple binary there, like, oh, this

Jeromy Johnson Um

Jacob Kendall person

Jeromy Johnson hum.

Jacob Kendall is from another tribe. They're automatically, uh, evil or bad,

Jeromy Johnson Um

Jacob Kendall right?

Jeromy Johnson hum.

Jacob Kendall We're still walking around with those brains, but we're living in a world in which that doesn't work very well. It was

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall the reason that government, government and money were invented in the first place, so we could survive alongside people who were so-called from different tribes, quote unquote. Um, but we still have a lot of those, those tendencies. And I do not have the answer for how to get past that.

Jeromy Johnson No.

Jacob Kendall But I think, I think you and I can both agree that it is a huge issue that is impeding what could be incredible progress for us as humans. I mean, we're incredibly intelligent. Why can we not figure out this, figure this out?

Jeromy Johnson Yeah. It's almost like if there's not an enemy, we invent an enemy. Like we

Jacob Kendall I

Jeromy Johnson always have

Jacob Kendall absolutely.

Jeromy Johnson to have something to to be against. I think you can rise above that. But I think if you're not, if you're not aware, if you're not paying attention like you're always looking for, for an enemy, another right. And us versus them and

Jacob Kendall And it's and it's very successful

Jeromy Johnson it

Jacob Kendall with

Jeromy Johnson is, oh,

Jacob Kendall with

Jeromy Johnson it

Jacob Kendall what?

Jeromy Johnson sells and

Jacob Kendall With

Jeromy Johnson it gets.

Jacob Kendall with what Lenin and Stalin did with the kulaks and with with the, uh, the, the in Myanmar, with the Rohingyas and in the fifties here with the communists and fill in the blank with the with

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall the groups that are now the weaponized. So it works remarkably well. And that should tell us a lot about humans.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah. And it goes macro. Then it goes micro. Right? Like my

Jacob Kendall Yep.

Jeromy Johnson aunt who said something at Thanksgiving is now my enemy. We don't talk to her or or whatever. And to me, this, this more open grace like that. The hardest thing for people to wrap around that a they go like, well, where's the line? When does this grace, when does this love not apply? And then they also go. The hardest thing for them to let go of is this otherness. Because if you have a if you think that everything is one, if you think everything's that's connected, if you think that there's this, this grace who's eventually going to, um, accept and bring everyone in, then there is no other like there. There is no reason to have another an enemy. But we really like that. We really

Jacob Kendall I know.

Jeromy Johnson like having because there's tribes and we like that tribalism and and so that's that's hard for a lot of people to to let go of.

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson Um.

Jacob Kendall I mean, it's how our brains function. We dichotomize things to make make sense of them. Um, that's why I think that deep meditation. We can't just tell everyone to go take psilocybin all the time. And of course, we don't. We don't want we don't want to give risk people having NDEs, near-death experiences. But I think deep meditation, um, we need more where we're reflecting on on this. We're just taking a step back and saying, oh, don't be reactionary, right. Don't

Jeromy Johnson Yeah,

Jacob Kendall be reactionary.

Jeromy Johnson yeah.

Jacob Kendall Um, I think that's what it's going to take. We're we're fighting an uphill battle. We're carrying around this really expensive machinery called our brains. That's very remarkable. Um, but there's no such thing as a free lunch. And having a brain comes with a cost. You know, I love bird watching. And one of the reasons, one of the many reasons I love bird watching and going out to see wildlife is because there is no discrimination there. They don't care. They don't care whether I am able to correctly identify what they are. They don't they don't have that kind of concern. They don't carry that around with them. Like, you know what, it's good to have a few moments here and there where I'm in nature, where none of that exists. It's nice.

Jeromy Johnson Kind of observed normality and. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. Um, so you mentioned that. So you're also a social worker and you said within social work there's a code of ethics.

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson Can you explain what that is and maybe how that might align with with grace and love.

Jacob Kendall Yeah. Well, uh, social work is much more than clinical, but most people think of either a case manager or a therapist. And when you have any kind of clinical field medicine, nursing, also, uh, teachers and attorneys, you have these few, these handful of fields where they have to have a code of ethics. Right? They have to. And if you violate that, then you can lose your licensure or whatever. It has to be there. We want our nurses. We want our therapists. We want our physicians to be governed by a code of ethics, to have that as a foundation. I personally think that that there should be that for ministry for clergy as well. Uh,

Jeromy Johnson Hmm?

Jacob Kendall I'm actually really taken aback by the fact that there's not that

Jeromy Johnson Hmm

Jacob Kendall and I think

Jeromy Johnson hmm.

Jacob Kendall it's a major, major issue. Perhaps that's a different conversation. Perhaps it's it's not. Um, but with social work, I think it's more one of the more robust codes of ethics.

Jeromy Johnson Hmm?

Jacob Kendall Ethics. So, you know, check yourself at the door, regardless of who your client is, you treat them the same as you do every other client, and you try to help them with the problem they came to see you for. And

Jeromy Johnson Hmm hmm.

Jacob Kendall I was, um, one of the more insightful things that I heard. I didn't even particularly, you know, get along with this person belief wise or whatever, and I'm no longer in touch with them. But I was having a conversation. I was at a social work conference, and he and I decided to go get lunch between sessions. And we were walking and he said he he identifies as a just about as Marxist as you can possibly be. Way on the left, right and social workers tend to be more progressive or liberal than conservative. I mean, we're serving those who are most vulnerable. It makes a lot of sense in some ways. But he told his colleagues in his department he was the department head. He said, listen, being a social worker means that people who are conservative, like if you're treating someone as a therapist and that person voted for policies that are harmful to vulnerable members of our society, you still treat that person the same as you do anyone else. And his colleague said his colleagues have problems with that. And I'm like, you're completely right. That's what

Jeromy Johnson Mm.

Jacob Kendall a code of ethics means. That's what that means. It doesn't matter what the person sitting in front of you believes, you treat them with the same level of dignity and competence as you do anyone else. Right. And that is very, very difficult. They are social workers, of course. Horse. Who? And I'm a former social work professor. I taught both social work in global health. I did social work first, and I did it at a very conservative evangelical rural university, which is both a very challenging and a very fun place to teach social work.

Jeromy Johnson I bet.

Jacob Kendall And I would tell my students, because most of the most social workers are women, and most women are interested in younger children, especially like in abusive homes or

Jeromy Johnson Hmm?

Jacob Kendall whatever. And of course, we don't have to. I don't have to sit here and convince anyone that, oh yeah, we help women and children who are in abusive homes. But listen, they are social workers and therapists who are also their clients are the abusers, right?

Jeromy Johnson Yep.

Jacob Kendall And they have to treat them the same. They have the same code of ethics applies.

Jeromy Johnson Hmm.

Jacob Kendall And I think that that's difficult for people to, to deal with. Um.

Jeromy Johnson Especially, I imagine, a mom where her heart's involved. Because it's. It's can be hard to remove that, you know?

Jacob Kendall It's it's difficult for, for a lot of reasons that this is the case. And I told my social workers, like, listen, this is a conservative place. So they didn't they didn't like, uh, abortion or gay people just to put, put, put, put it very simply. And I said, listen, if you're not willing to put your beliefs aside and help these different kinds of vulnerable people, then you need to not be in this major. You need to you need to go find a different career.

Jeromy Johnson Mm.

Jacob Kendall And so where I feel like a a code of ethics points us to a, uh, a kind of professionalized form of grace.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall Right? In my opinion, I kind of interpret it that way. God doesn't need a code of ethics, but we humans do because we screw things up all the time. If it weren't for that, we already have therapists who violate the code of ethics. If we didn't have that, we would have many more of them because we're humans and we muck things up.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall So, um, I see it as like this, this codified, professionalized form of grace, code

Jeromy Johnson Mm.

Jacob Kendall of ethics. I don't know, I know. I don't remember what your original question was, but I think I may have answered it.

Jeromy Johnson No. That's fascinating. Um, because I think that's what it comes down to is recognizing, uh, people's dignity and honoring that dignity that each person, regardless of which country they're from, regardless of what denomination they belong to, regardless of what religion, regardless of what political party they are, regardless of what their beliefs are, they all have an inherent human dignity.

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson And we need to honor that. And we need to. And and I think it starts with ourselves. Right? Like if we don't

Jacob Kendall Oh, yeah.

Jeromy Johnson honor our own dignity, if we don't love our own self, if we don't start that healing process of what does it mean for me to accept myself and to be gracious with my own self and my

Jacob Kendall Oh,

Jeromy Johnson own shortcomings?

Jacob Kendall absolutely.

Jeromy Johnson How in the world are we going to be able to apply that to others? We don't know how because we've never really learned it ourselves.

Jacob Kendall Hurt people. Hurt people. That's that's

Jeromy Johnson Yeah,

Jacob Kendall the phrase.

Jeromy Johnson yeah.

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson And I think, like you, you know, some people go, well, how can you know grace apply to x, y, z. And it's like look x y, z. They are afraid and they are hurt and they are reacting out of that fear and that pain and that fear and pain lives in me and it lives in you. And it's how are we dealing with that? How are we wrestling with that? How are we acknowledging that that I have pain, that I do have fear. And I think, honestly, almost everything can come down to that at a just basic level. And even fear, I think, is even that pain because we're afraid of getting hurt. So therefore we put all sorts of things up, you know? Um,

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson so to me, it's like our fear is really the number one driving thing that I've come to, to realize. And I had to see it in myself. Um,

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson I used to control, try to control everything and try to control things a lot. And I realized I was just afraid.

Jacob Kendall Yeah, I my my, uh, view is that the more we hate others, the more we're distracting ourselves from what we hate about ourselves.

Jeromy Johnson Hmm.

Jacob Kendall Yeah. And I think

Jeromy Johnson That's

Jacob Kendall this

Jeromy Johnson good.

Jacob Kendall this is playing itself out writ large right now to

Jeromy Johnson It is.

Jacob Kendall to a global level. Uh, and things things aren't going well as a result.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah, yeah. Um, let's just end on a couple couple questions here. What do you think the church has gotten right about God? About grace, in your opinion? And I mean, just your experience, right? Because church is a big word.

Jacob Kendall Yeah. People who are religious, from what I've seen are healthier, have so many better health outcomes compared to people who are not. Now, I, for one, believe that that's largely social.

Jeromy Johnson Um hum.

Jacob Kendall Um, as in, it's the fact that they're around other people. You know, it's not it's not the fact that that their prayers are being answered. It's the fact that they're praying in the first place, and especially if they're doing it with other people.

Jeromy Johnson Um hum.

Jacob Kendall But I'm also not sure really sure that that matters. And I know a lot of people, myself included, where we don't feel drawn to attend a church, but we still miss that social aspect of it.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall But when you look around and try to find a replacement for that, there's not one. I think the church has done a remarkable job at capitalizing on perhaps the the greatest variable that can bring people together. Um, and provided a, a system for that. Do they always get it right? No, but

Jeromy Johnson Um

Jacob Kendall they do a lot of things well.

Jeromy Johnson hum.

Jacob Kendall Um, there, there there is no universal replacement for the social benefits of religion. Not not that I've seen. That's not to say that. I mean, there are definitely some non-religious people who manage to have great social support.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall But there's not there's not some. It's because they took the proactive effort to do it, or they happen to live in a place where that's that's there. But that but religion itself, and I know you specifically ask about the church, but I think this applies to other religions too. Like it's, it's it's everywhere.

Jeromy Johnson Just that community, though, that they're able to provide.

Jacob Kendall Yeah. And nothing else is replicated that.

Jeromy Johnson Mm. You mean the Lions Club? It doesn't, uh, doesn't replicate that anymore.

Jacob Kendall Uh,

Jeromy Johnson I

Jacob Kendall I

Jeromy Johnson just

Jacob Kendall don't I don't know much about

Jeromy Johnson yeah.

Jacob Kendall that, but I

Jeromy Johnson No,

Jacob Kendall don't

Jeromy Johnson but

Jacob Kendall think

Jeromy Johnson there

Jacob Kendall so.

Jeromy Johnson used to be in our culture. There used to be, you know, other clubs or organizations that you would, uh, you'd join to kind of get that brotherhood. And, you know, those are, you know, not around anymore. Um,

Jacob Kendall Um.

Jeromy Johnson you know, it's funny because I, I myself have gone it's been it's been a while since I've been to church, and I recently started reconnecting and I think it was like, and, and I even told the people there, I said, you know, I'm here to try to to build a community within my, my life and

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson I'm not. So part of me was like, how can I go to church? Not for the theology, not for that, but just for the community. And so that's kind of what I'm, I'm stepping into right now.

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson Um, what do you feel like they've gotten wrong?

Jacob Kendall When I was in grad school at Tulane, I lived in New Orleans for seven years, and I was good friends with a large university like Tulane has several different offerings for religious groups, campus ministry. And I was good friends with the person who led the Wesleyan campus ministry. So basically Progressive Methodist. Um, and he would tell me and it wasn't it wasn't doing badly, but, um, you know, it was smaller compared to the conservative Baptist one across the street. And he

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall said that it bothered him that, uh, not just in his case, but I think he I believe him when he said that this is a reflection of a broader picture here, but it bothered him to see all those people going in to something that's not his. But not just that. That he knows what those what the Baptists were teaching. Right.

Jeromy Johnson Um.

Jacob Kendall Um, one thing that I what's generally true, and I think we may be seeing somewhat of a turn back on this, I don't know how if we're going to be able to sustain it, but I think what's generally true is that people are more drawn to division and polarization in us them ideology. Again, that's how our brains work. So there's a reason that many conservative evangelical religious denominations are doing very, very well, whereas those who try to be open to everyone are not doing as well.

Jeromy Johnson Hum.

Jacob Kendall And I think the church has failed to figure that out. I love it when I see a church like, yeah, we're open to everyone and whatnot. And I'm like, yeah, what? You're still not demographically or financially as successful as the churches who are

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall much more closed off.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah.

Jacob Kendall Figure that out.

Jeromy Johnson Isn't

Jacob Kendall And

Jeromy Johnson that

Jacob Kendall it's

Jeromy Johnson interesting?

Jacob Kendall not it's

Jeromy Johnson And

Jacob Kendall not

Jeromy Johnson and maybe

Jacob Kendall been able to.

Jeromy Johnson and maybe there isn't a figuring out, right? Maybe

Jacob Kendall I

Jeromy Johnson that's

Jacob Kendall know.

Jeromy Johnson just that's just part of it. Um, Jacob, anything else that you would like to share with us before we part ways here?

Jacob Kendall I really appreciate your openness to having a conversation. You. I think you probably imagined to be a bit different when we went into it, but you're, you're

Jeromy Johnson Nope.

Jacob Kendall you're open to have the to to, you know, let me take things in the way that makes sense for me. Um,

Jeromy Johnson Um.

Jacob Kendall and revise that. And I think that's very gracious of you to do that. So that's, to me, a good marker of grace that you are open to having a. Really interesting and open conversation. So I appreciate that.

Jeromy Johnson Yeah. No. My curiosity has has grown a lot. When you don't view people as, you know, us and them and whatever, you know, like, I don't have to be afraid of what you believe. You don't have to be afraid of what I believe.

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson Just what you believe is what you believe. What I believe is what I believe. And let's talk and let's have a conversation and let's put it out there so other people can hear and maybe grow and change from that. You know, I really, really appreciate what you were saying about aging, and I hope that we're able to take a turn from that. As a fifty year old, I experience ageism, right? Both in the workplace and in other things.

Jacob Kendall Yep.

Jeromy Johnson Um, as a guy with gray hair. It's, you know, it's sexy, it's salt and pepper. But then as a woman gets gray hair, it's

Jacob Kendall Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson like old and decrepit. And so even the, the double edged sword that comes with that. But I really do appreciate a lot of what you had to say. Um, but again, specifically aging and how we can get in touch with a better generosity towards aging, we will become more compassionate and gracious people in the long run.

Jacob Kendall Indeed.

Jeromy Johnson Cool. All right, Jacob, well, thank you so much for joining us. And. Yeah,

Jacob Kendall Thanks,

Jeromy Johnson for

Jacob Kendall Jeremy.

Jeromy Johnson bringing not only your scholarship and curiosity, but also your honesty and your lived experience, I appreciate

Jacob Kendall Likewise.

Jeromy Johnson that.

Jacob Kendall I appreciate

Jacob Kendall it, Jeremy.