00:00:00 Jeromy Johnson: Last time we explored the story behind Christian Universalism, how a pastor named David Hartman came to believe that God's grace would one day save everyone. But in this episode, the conversation shifts. This isn't a testimony. It's a dialogue, a spirited, respectful debate between two different ideas or two ways of seeing God, one that sees salvation as conditional and the other that insists love has no limits. You'll hear us wrestle with Scripture, with logic, and with the moral question at the heart of it all. Can a God who is good create a world where anyone is lost forever? This is part two of evangelicalism versus universalism, a conversation about heaven, hell and the scandal of love that refuses to quit. I'm your host, Jeremy Johnson, and you're listening to slutty Grace. Okay, so let's say there there is no hell. There is no eternal place of torment. Then what are we saved from? Because Roman clearly states that God demonstrates his own love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, that if we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our heart that Jesus raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So what in the world are we being saved from? Why did Jesus come and die on the cross? To save people? What are we being saved from then? If there's no. If there's no hell. If there's no eternal separation from God.

00:01:45 David Artman: Yeah, I think we're being saved from sin, death, and evil. The early church thought that humanity was under the burden of death under the penalty of sin, and that Jesus had come to rescue humanity from that burden. And Christian Universalists also believe that to the extent that we embrace sin in this life, we bring ruin and suffering on ourselves in this life. So there's lots of reasons that you would want to be delivered from sin in this life, because it has terrible consequences.

00:02:17 Jeromy Johnson: So Jesus just came so we didn't feel bad. And like the consequences of our choices here on earth were just better. He came or was there? I just I feel like there's more to it.

00:02:26 David Artman: Yeah, well, no, I mean, he came that we might have fullness of life. Yeah. You know, so that we might we might be we might be delivered. We might. And. Yeah.

00:02:35 Jeromy Johnson: Sanctified.

00:02:36 David Artman: Sanctified that we would, that we would begin to experience the life of heaven right now, that we would enter into God's kingdom here on earth as it is in heaven. The where where the Christian Universalists would say is that suppose somebody decides not to do that when they go into the afterlife, they will meet God's judgment. God's wrath against sin. And the early Christian Universalists believed that it would be at the only at the end of the ages that some of these people would be able to be delivered, because the process of purification would take a very long time, because God would not rush the process, that you would have to fully understand what you had done, the evil that you had done, and that it wouldn't it wouldn't be a process that would be rushed. And like early Christian Universalists compared it to like a surgeon who would have to deliver a cure, but the cure would not be able to be painless, that being separated from the evil that had attached itself to us, or that we had attached to in this lifetime, could be horribly and would be horribly painful. And so what I want to save people from, and myself is the consequences of sin in this lifetime, and the consequences of sin after this lifetime, which I believe are enormous. I personally want to try to remove as much sinfulness from myself as I can in this life, because I respect that my Heavenly Father will not be satisfied with any evil or wicked way in me. And if there is any evil or wicked way in me, I would expect God to have to work that out of me after I die. So I don't want to go through that process. Not because I don't trust God, but because I have come to see evil for what it is. I just want to avoid as much of it as I possibly can.

00:04:21 Jeromy Johnson: So this sounds a lot like like purgatory.

00:04:24 David Artman: Yeah, in a sense it would be. It's almost like if you imagine sort of an expansion of purgatory.

00:04:29 Jeromy Johnson: So then they would be in this place of purgatory, this place of cleansing, until they got to a point where they confessed or believed in Jesus.

00:04:37 David Artman: Yeah, but it wouldn't be. It wouldn't be the type of thing where they would be upset about this. It would be more like, have you ever heard of stories of people that went through recovery? And they finally got to the point where they could see the damage that the addiction had done to them, and they could see how it was ruining their lives. And they woke up to it. And then they they were like, so glad to be rid of it. I think it will be just like anything that we have in life whenever we do something, and at first we don't understand what it is that we're doing that's wrong. But then once we see that it's not good for us, then we're glad to be rid of it. I think the truth sets us free. And so that ultimately, the truth of God is not something that we will resent, but will be joyful once we're finally delivered. Because the truth of God is love and light and goodness and joy and all those things. And I think when we are able to finally see that, that we will be glad of it.

00:05:33 Jeromy Johnson: So this could be a five minute process, thirty minute process, seventeen year process. I guess it just depends on on the person. So this is where your stance comes that even like Hitler.

00:05:45 David Artman: I would say no, let's say all of your no. Well, I think I'm more with the early church fathers who thought that God was the God of the ages. Like Paul in Ephesians two seven talks about in the coming ages what God will do to show the riches of God's love. I think that that God is not someone who rushes processes. So I could see that this, that this experience could potentially last what might seem like thousands of years to us, but in the scope of eternity, it would still make sense. I don't know exactly how time will feel or be measured out to us after we leave this realm, because, you know, we've all heard of stories of people who, you know, like fell from a fell from a high place, and then they survived. But they said that during the time that they fell, it felt like their whole life passed in front of them. I don't know exactly what time might be like or might feel like I don't. I don't exactly understand that. But what I don't want to say is that this process is somehow rushed or Instantaneous, that I think it will be the kind of experience that you will wish that you had not brought on yourself. It's not going to be something that that you're going to say, wow, I got the best I got, I got to do all this evil stuff. And then I didn't really have to pay very much for it.

00:07:04 Jeromy Johnson: But if they confess during this purgatory time, doesn't it end? Yes. Jesus was who he was. And I do believe that he died and everything else and my sins are covered. So then why wouldn't I just be released at that point?

00:07:17 David Artman: Well. Are you. I think to the sense that you're to the extent that you would be truly repentant of what you have done, uh, that you would have a full awareness of those things if somebody was able to come to that very quickly. I guess that that would that could happen.

00:07:33 Jeromy Johnson: Well, it just says, if you confess in your with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord, you're saved.

00:07:38 David Artman: Well, you know, if that's the way it happens, I guess that's the way it happens. I would it would seem to me. And Jesus talks about that like in the sermon on the Mount in the fifth chapter of Matthew, is talking about the go ahead and settle with your accuser before you get to the judge, because if you get to the judge, you will be handed over to the jailor, and you won't get out until you have paid the last penny. And so, you know, there are there are statements that from Jesus that are very seem very severe about judgment, that seem not just something that's oh, okay. I just say I believe these things and everything's fine. And people who believe in Christian universalism have a range of opinions about these things.

00:08:18 Jeromy Johnson: Okay. So there's different opinions then.

00:08:20 David Artman: Of yeah, yeah, I think there would be some that would say, hey, you know, you got the parable of the prodigal son. The son comes back, boy, the the restoration seems pretty instantaneous. The father doesn't say to the prodigal son, well, okay, you were gone for. Let's see. You were gone for six months and you spent forty thousand dollars, and I pay my workers. Okay? You're going to need to work as my slave for thirty years.

00:08:47 Jeromy Johnson: Maybe. Maybe that part was cut out of the parable. They shrunk it down.

00:08:52 David Artman: Because I think that if the father had said, yeah, you're going to live with my servants, and I'm not going to treat you as a son. You'll be doing that for thirty years. I think the older brother would have been. Heck yeah, that's true.

00:09:02 Jeromy Johnson: It sounds like. It sounds like this is how you're reconciling. I mean, the Bible clearly says that God is love, but he's also a just God. Like, no, like God's love. I love you. I've given you this opportunity to choose me before you die. If you have it, I now have to be just. And I now have to be a God of my word.

00:09:21 David Artman: Okay, okay, let me let me turn the tables on you a little bit here. Okay. So you believe the Bible?

00:09:27 Jeromy Johnson: Absolutely. It's the inspired, inerrant word of God.

00:09:30 David Artman: Okay. So, um, do you believe that God knows the end from the beginning?

00:09:36 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. I mean, there is no end or beginning with God.

00:09:39 David Artman: In other words, however, the creation turns out it's not going to be a surprise to God. Yes, but God's not going to say, hey, there's Joe in heaven. Well, I didn't think Joe was going to make it. It's not going to be like that, right?

00:09:51 Jeromy Johnson: Probably, probably with me it might.

00:09:55 David Artman: So, so however, it all turns out, is not going to be a surprise to God.

00:09:58 Jeromy Johnson: No, no, I mean, nothing is a surprise to God. He's omniscient.

00:10:01 David Artman: Okay, so it's not a surprise to God. Okay, so let's say Joe passes on accepting Jesus as his Savior, and then he goes to hell in your in your understanding of it.

00:10:12 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. So he died. He did not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, therefore.

00:10:17 David Artman: Right. And he goes to hell forever and God is tormenting him forever.

00:10:21 Jeromy Johnson: God isn't. But yes, that place of torment exists and it will go on forever.

00:10:25 David Artman: What do you mean God isn't.

00:10:26 Jeromy Johnson: Well, God's not actively sitting there like tormenting.

00:10:29 David Artman: But God has set up a situation in which the person feels endless pain and remorse.

00:10:34 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:10:35 David Artman: Okay. And basically. So your understanding. Is that So Joe lives for, let's say, I don't know, sixty years, seventy years. Uh, but at the beginning of creation, God knew that this was going to be Joe's fate.

00:10:50 Jeromy Johnson: Correct.

00:10:51 David Artman: Okay. Uh, so then when God offers the offer of salvation to Joe in Christ, does God know that Joe will not accept it?

00:11:01 Jeromy Johnson: Well, we have free will. And so therefore, I feel like.

00:11:05 David Artman: That's not the question.

00:11:06 Jeromy Johnson: Point.

00:11:06 David Artman: That's not the question. That's not the question. Does God know? Yeah. Okay. Does God know that Joe's going to use his free will to reject the offer?

00:11:15 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, I suppose he does.

00:11:17 David Artman: Okay, so God knows God is going to offer a grace to Joe in Jesus and that Joe's not going to accept it. So God knows from the beginning of creation that God's going to be once the God pushes the button on creation, so to speak. God knows that Joe's just going to be in hell for all eternity, right?

00:11:36 Jeromy Johnson: Oh, that was a question, right?

00:11:37 David Artman: God knows that. Correct?

00:11:39 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:11:40 David Artman: And yet, uh, God is goodness and light. As a being who there is no right there is. God is love. And so Joe should Joe is a recipient of God's love.

00:11:52 Jeromy Johnson: But just because Joe, just because God knew that does not mean that Joe still didn't have that opportunity. He just knew that Joe wouldn't choose that. But Joe still had an opportunity to choose that. But he just never did. And God just knew that. Like, if I know the end of a book, right, it doesn't mean that that those characters and the choices that they make in that book are any different. Just because I know the end of it. Joe still had the chance and still had the opportunity. And I think it breaks God's heart that Joe never put his faith in Jesus.

00:12:22 David Artman: But God knows God makes the God knows the end from the beginning. So if it's going to break God's heart that Joe is not going to do this, then why would God make a creation in which God knows that Joe is never going to do this? Would you, as a parent, Enroll your child in something that you knew with absolute certainty that they would fail and that would, if you love them, that you knew if you enrolled them in this thing that they would be lost for you, to you forever.

00:12:48 Jeromy Johnson: Probably not. But I don't know that that's what we're talking about here.

00:12:52 David Artman: Well, if Jesus Jesus taught us that we are to we are to. How do we understand God? Well, God is Father, and he even, you know, talked about well, even, you know, even bad fathers know how to give good gifts to their children. How much more does your heavenly father know how to give good gifts to you? Uh, so if God, if we're to understand that God is truly like a loving father, what loving father would enroll one of their children in something that they knew would ultimately lead to their to their demise? One hundred percent certainty. And then just say, well, I don't know. I gave them free will.

00:13:27 Jeromy Johnson: And I guess the reason why I say this isn't relevant is that you're using human logic and behavior and things of that nature and applying this to God, where the Bible says that God's ways are not our ways, his mind and thoughts are not our thoughts. They are bigger than ours and they're different than ours.

00:13:45 David Artman: All I'm doing is referring to how Jesus told us to think about God. I think the Bible also says that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. You're, uh, trying to use, I don't know, some other kinds of, uh, kind of just sort of categories. God's ways are above our ways. We don't. We can't think about God. And to me, this is what evangelicalism does. It says, okay, we can't apply any human logic to God. We know what love is as human beings. We even know that Jesus taught us to think of God as a father, but we can't apply any of that to what God is like, because God is this being whose ways are so far above our ways that God that God could make a creation, knowing in full knowledge that the vast majority of those in the creation would suffer eternal torment, and it would not. It's not for us to even to question that at all. Now, here's what I think is really dangerous about this. If you teach people to ignore their basic human intuition about good and evil. Once you teach them to dumb them down, dumb those thoughts down about that, they will dumb those thoughts down about other things, and they will imitate the God that they believe in. Those types of people are set up to not have compassion for all kinds of people, and to easily be weaponized, and to commit all kinds of violence in the name of that God who they believe ultimately torments people forever.

00:15:05 Jeromy Johnson: Oh yeah, I get the feeling that you're starting to go into a space of like, see, this is what we're seeing exactly right now in our day and age. And then I don't think that we need to go there necessarily as an evangelical.

00:15:18 David Artman: But I think this is the point where we can just agree that I won the debate.

00:15:25 Jeromy Johnson: Yes, but love, David, has to be given and chosen freely. And so God has created this world, this space, humans for us to be able to choose to love him. If you force your kid to love you, if you force your wife to love you, well, is it love? It has to be given. It has to be given freely. And so, yeah, I think God took the risk of creating creation, knowing that a lot of people were not going to choose him because of their sin.

00:15:58 Speaker 5: Nature took the risk.

00:15:59 David Artman: Okay. Yeah. This is you know, you know, when I read the Bible, it talks about that God is the that no purpose of God may be thwarted, that God is the one who declares the end from the beginning, that God is the one for whom nothing is too hard. I you know, I think there's a sovereign God in the Bible. It's not just risking stuff and saying, well, I think I'll try this. I don't know what's going to happen. God is not experimenting with creation. God has definite plans for creation. God knows what's going on. God is love. And so God is not deciding to be love. Like, I wonder if I'm going to be loving today. No. God is love. And so the act of creation is an act of love. We are God's children, I believe. I think there's scripture that shows this, and I think that then if we are the children of love, then we are of love ourselves. And that that our true orientation is towards is towards that love and that that there's nothing wrong if we are the children of love, become aware of that and what that is and be joined to that joyfully. I have come to see that it's a great gift that I live in a universe I believe I live in a universe that's made by a God of love. I am a child of God. At my core is love. And so that when when I am saved and delivered from everything that is false and untrue, that the love that is in me will be joined with the love of God and with all other humans, and we will finally be one joyful harmony. There's nothing not to like about that now, children, you know, children don't ask to be born. Parents have children. And I think God makes a creation. But there's a great there's a there's an even greater burden on God as creator than of than of human parents. Because human parents don't know the end from the beginning. They can't control, they don't know what's going on. They're contingent agents within this whole thing where God is the one who initiates the whole thing. And then, as my understanding takes full moral responsibility for the outcome of it, and a God of love would never enter into a creation to create children, knowing that somehow one of those children would ultimately fail to experience and to come into union, and to get to know and understand the very source of love. Who is their creator?

00:18:14 Jeromy Johnson: Even one child.

00:18:16 David Artman: Even one? Possibly there cannot even be. There is not just that one could be missing. If there is even the possibility that one could be missing, then God has forfeited his goodness in the wager of creation, And I'd be happy to say that to God's face over here. I ever got the chance to.

00:18:33 Jeromy Johnson: Okay. Last argument. What if you're wrong?

00:18:36 Speaker 5: Okay.

00:18:37 Jeromy Johnson: What if I'm right?

00:18:38 Speaker 5: Well, if.

00:18:38 Jeromy Johnson: Are you willing to risk that? Are you willing to risk an eternity for your beliefs?

00:18:42 David Artman: Well, I would say that, you know, ironically, I'm just believing the Bible here that I'm believing.

00:18:48 Speaker 5: As as I am, um, as am I.

00:18:50 David Artman: Well, I mean, I think you're. I think you're misinterpreting it. I think what.

00:18:56 Speaker 5: Same.

00:18:56 Jeromy Johnson: Could.

00:18:57 Speaker 5: Be said. But, you know, I would.

00:18:59 David Artman: Just say that, you know, it's it's in the it's in the very holy Scriptures, you know, that we have that you are goodness and light in whom there is no darkness at all. And I find all kinds of scriptural reasons to believe these things.

00:19:10 Speaker 5: Yes.

00:19:10 David Artman: And it's because of Jesus. It's because of what I see in him. It's because of Scripture that I have come to believe that God is and must be a being of light, in whom there is no darkness at all. Therefore, if you stand in front of me, and I can detect in you darkness any darkness at all, then I would have.

00:19:29 Speaker 5: To believe in God. Yes.

00:19:31 David Artman: Then I would have to reject you as a demiurge or a false god. And so that's all I could do. Now, I don't know what that would mean then. I don't know what that would mean then for me. But if I got to that point and I said, well, you know, I believe that your goodness and light and but I see that you now torment people and I don't want to get tormented. So you know what? Hey, forget I ever said anything, and I'm just going to get with the plan. You know? I just can't imagine myself living with that. But I have been believing this now for many years, uh, since around twenty eleven. And I've gotten to the point now where just the idea that somehow I am overestimating the goodness and love of God seems absolutely ridiculous to me at this point. As a matter of fact, sometimes I try to imagine the happiest possible outcome that I could possibly imagine. Usually that's sort of a dance number with everybody in all of creation, and we're all dancing and celebrating and laughing and hugging each other joyfully. It's like it's like a Disney movie on steroids at the end with the most beautiful, kind of loving celebration you could possibly imagine. Then I think if that's I mean, kind of like the most I can imagine, God is way out ahead of me on what might be. And when I see when I contemplate just how enormous our universe is and what power, what awesome power we must be dealing with the idea that God's capacity for endless joy, I think, is is there. I know in the early church, Gregory of Nyssa had this idea of epectasis, which meant that the infinite joy and love of God is something that we could ever expand into. That being in God's embrace eternally would be something that would never become boring or tedious, because God's love and mercy and beauty would always be moving out in front of us in ever more beautiful and interesting ways. I mean, to me, that's an exciting way to think about where I'm headed and where we're all headed.

00:21:28 Jeromy Johnson: Well, that sounds too good to be true. And a lot to hope.

00:21:31 Speaker 5: Sounds too good.

00:21:32 David Artman: Not to be.

00:21:32 Speaker 5: True.

00:21:33 Jeromy Johnson: Hmm. Well, I'll tell you what, David. I will call it a draw.

00:21:38 Speaker 5: Okay. Um.

00:21:40 Jeromy Johnson: You have defended morally and philosophically your your position, and I think we'll just agree to disagree.

00:21:48 David Artman: Yeah, well, my book, you know, we've been I've been, uh, off the cuff here and, you know, kind of being fun.

00:21:55 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:21:56 David Artman: My book is a more is a more thoughtful way of moving through all these questions, all these biblical questions. I get into why I think I can make a positive case for it. And I also go through a lot of the scriptures that we have talked about, and I do that in a more serious way. I'm being a bit silly in this podcast. The book is a more serious reflection on all of these things. And, uh, my first thirty episodes that I do with the podcast is Me behaving. And setting this out in a more in a more serious, pastoral kind of way. I've got tons of interviews with, with well known scholars on all of these issues. And if anybody goes to my podcast, David Hartman, my website, David Hartman, Dot net has a contact thing and they can leave questions for me and I, you know, I'll respond, I'll.

00:22:47 Speaker 5: Okay.

00:22:48 David Artman: I'll get back to people about this. And there is I think I'm feeling a little bolder about all of this now, because there's just so many good resources out there for people to investigate. So many people are starting to come on board and wanting to talk about this. Even though you're playing the role today.

00:23:04 Speaker 5: Of.

00:23:04 David Artman: You know, of the questioner, you're a perfect example. That's why I had you on my podcast. You're the perfect example of somebody who is a real, honest to goodness, hardcore, Bible believing Christian. And I don't think you've really given up your Bible believing in order to come to this position. I think you're.

00:23:22 Speaker 5: You.

00:23:22 David Artman: Have found a different way to look at things now. You can still remember clearly why you thought.

00:23:27 Speaker 5: All.

00:23:28 David Artman: The old things that you thought. That's why I can say. That's why I feel so confident that this is not a departure from Scripture. And it's not that this is really a legitimately Christian thing, because I just see people from all different backgrounds in the Christian world coming to this. And, you know, it's a trickle right now. But, man, I've seen in the last ten years, I've seen that trickle get a little bit bigger, and I see more people and more people coming around, more content coming. I mean, there's this guy who started a podcast called slutty Grace. I mean, who knows where it's all going?

00:24:00 Speaker 5: Unhinged.

00:24:03 Jeromy Johnson: Well, I'm taking off my my, uh, evangelical hat now. I David, I have to be honest, that was surreal for me. That was really odd to step back into those shoes.

00:24:16 Speaker 5: Yeah. Boy, you.

00:24:17 David Artman: It was interesting.

00:24:18 Jeromy Johnson: It felt like old, old wineskin.

00:24:20 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I could.

00:24:21 David Artman: See, like your facial like your body, your like your the.

00:24:24 Speaker 5: Way you're just.

00:24:25 David Artman: The way you presented yourself. What you look on your face. You know, it was really interesting to see you switch back into that mode.

00:24:31 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. And who knows what the tone was. But I mean, there's one thing about evangelicals in my in my history is like, we're we're adamant. We have passion. Yeah. We have, uh, we want to get the word out there. And I feel like you put a clear statement out there and a good defense.

00:24:47 Speaker 5: Um, yeah.

00:24:48 Jeromy Johnson: I mean, I try to throw as much at you from all the different angles, and I feel like you handled it with grace. Right. Um, now, obviously you knew that I was playing, but I feel like you would still be the same person, even if it was someone who really was angry at you and who was really like David. You are causing people to stumble and to go to hell. You need to stop this message.

00:25:10 Speaker 5: Yeah, well.

00:25:10 David Artman: I feel like that. I maybe I won't I'm learning a little bit from evangelicals is that maybe I'm enjoying being a little more passionate about this now. I mean, when I first started out, I was very much like, welcome everybody to the Great Saves All podcast. Today we're going to have another conversation about how the grace of God is for everyone. You know, I mean, I kind.

00:25:30 Speaker 5: Of had an NPR radio hour. Yeah, yeah, it kind of felt.

00:25:33 David Artman: It kind of felt more like that. And I think now I'm feeling a little more emboldened and wanting to be not so much confrontational, but non-apologetic and excited about this and feeling just a little more permission to be able to do that now.

00:25:49 Speaker 5: Mhm.

00:25:49 Jeromy Johnson: Well, your excitement and passion definitely came through. And if you guys are looking for a resource please check out David's book David. They can find it on audio version right.

00:26:00 Speaker 5: They can. It's on audible.

00:26:02 Jeromy Johnson: Paper version if they want to. Now did you read it?

00:26:04 Speaker 5: No.

00:26:05 Jeromy Johnson: Did you do the audio?

00:26:06 Speaker 5: No.

00:26:06 David Artman: Somebody else? Somebody else.

00:26:08 Speaker 5: Did that. Okay.

00:26:08 David Artman: But, uh, George Sarris did that for me, and I appreciate that. Uh, but if you don't want to pay for the book and you want to get kind of a free audio version of it, the first thirty episodes of my podcast are me just talking through the book.

00:26:21 Speaker 5: Okay, so.

00:26:22 David Artman: It's all that's I wanted to put that out. I wanted to put that out for free and in kind of little bite sized chunks so that, you know, sometimes the audiobook, you listen to it after a while, you're just like, oh, it's too much. So I just kind of moved through the basic contents of the book in like little fifteen minute segments over like thirty episodes. And that's kind of like, almost like the Reader's Digest version of the book.

00:26:45 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:26:45 David Artman: Then from there, if you're like, well, I'd like to know, I'd like to have a little more of the details. I'd like to see the footnotes. I'd like all of that. Well, then you can get the book if you, if you want to at that, at that level.

00:26:55 Jeromy Johnson: Well, I appreciate you pointing people, because I know you probably get trillions of dollars in royalties from selling the paper version. And so I appreciate you giving up some of that, especially now that Samsung TVs have jumped almost one hundred dollars in price from where they were at last year.

00:27:09 Speaker 5: Because, you know, so that's true.

00:27:11 Jeromy Johnson: We do appreciate.

00:27:12 Speaker 5: That. Well, I did want to do that free version that's important.

00:27:14 David Artman: And in my podcast I don't I don't ask for money on my podcast. If you go to my podcast, you will not feel bad. I won't say please, if you want to hear this podcast, send me money because there's no way I can do this podcast unless you send me money. It's not. It's just not true. It's just for me. It's not that expensive to do a podcast. That's kind of my gift. This is my gift to people. I wanted to give away the contents of the book. I did want to have the book out there and be published. Because the nice thing about publishing with a publisher is that book. That means my book will be in print as long as that publisher is around. It kind of lends to some permanence of the book. I also felt like it made it a little more, uh, gave it a little more respectability to be published by Wipf and Stock and to have and makes it feel a little more professional. And, uh, you know, if somebody's going to and people do this, they'll say they've told their mom and dad, like, mom and dad, I'm still Christian, but I've decided that I think that God ultimately is going to save everybody. And I'd be happy to talk with you about it. But before we do, I've got this book. It's a short book I want you to read. This is one of the ones that I read that I think does a good job of explaining all this. And they'll give they'll give my book.

00:28:25 Speaker 5: That's cool.

00:28:25 David Artman: You know, as a resource. And so I wanted it to look professional.

00:28:29 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:28:29 David Artman: And well done. Not just something that looks like it got self-published. And there's lots of, you know.

00:28:35 Jeromy Johnson: Typos.

00:28:36 Speaker 5: Yeah. It just doesn't look very good. Yeah. So I wanted.

00:28:39 David Artman: To have credibility. Yeah. That's what I'm looking for. I wanted to have some credibility. And, uh, so that was why I put the effort.

00:28:46 Jeromy Johnson: Well, thank you for that gift out there. Um, do you have time for just two more quick questions?

00:28:50 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:28:50 Jeromy Johnson: I'd like to ask people this question because I feel like it kind of brings it back home. We've talked a lot, pretty heady, a lot of theology, a lot of big words. What has the church. And I'll let you define that however you want to. What has the church gotten right with Grace?

00:29:08 David Artman: I discovered First Christian Church, Christian church, Disciples of Christ back in, uh, let's see, nineteen seventy nine, Seventy nine, nineteen eighty. It was around in there when I was starting freshman at Texas Tech, and I remember finding that church and finding a group of very loving, accepting people. We went we had communion together. There was a lot of understanding. There was a lot of hopefulness that I found in that group. I found a lot of grace, and I was encouraged to continue to like the way I like to put it. Is nobody ever put any limits on how good I could believe God was? So my experience has been kind of unusual, I think, in that I pretty early on found a church. It's a small denomination, but it's one that really emphasized the love of God and that each person should pursue their understanding of God's love to the best of their understanding as they read and apply the Bible to their lives. With the idea that we shouldn't be looking to judge other people by our reading of the Bible, we should be looking to judge ourselves and to live our own best, you know, in our own best lives and and then to try to do that in community.

00:30:16 Speaker 5: Well said.

00:30:17 David Artman: And I think there's a there's a kind of beautiful idea about that. And sometimes for brief moments, it actually even works for a little bit. And there are communities of love and reconciliation that come together, and people love each other and they try to help the poor. And I think that there is beautiful theology out there within the history of the church. There's a lot of ugliness, but there's also a lot of beauty that can, I think that can still be found. And that's why I still hang my hat within the Christian tradition.

00:30:48 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:30:49 Jeromy Johnson: And sometimes, as you and I know, that can be hard when people are leaving an abusive church situation or a toxic church situation, which doesn't sound like that. Was that was your case. What would you say that the church has has missed the mark, has gotten wrong, could improve about grace?

00:31:05 David Artman: Well, I think that what happened, in my view, was that we had this early, beautiful Greek theology by origin, Gregory of Nyssa, those types of folks, very hopeful early theology. And what happened was, once we get into Western Christendom, it's the theology of Augustine that takes over, really. And Western Christendom lost its imagination. It lost its ability to even imagine a God who was about the restoration of all things. And it worked actively to suppress that memory, even within the Christian community. So if I could do something all over again, I remember I wondered one time, what would it be like if all the world had ever really known that Christians were people who believed in the ultimate restoring power and mercy and grace of love that had been shed upon the world in Jesus Christ, and they were completely committed to non-violent lives of love and reconciliation. And that was the only Christianity that anybody had ever even known about. Like, as far as people were concerned, that's basically what Christianity was.

00:32:13 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:32:14 David Artman: I think if that had happened, then how the world would feel about Christianity today would be remarkably, would be remarkably different.

00:32:24 Jeromy Johnson: That would be an interesting, uh, side universe to follow. Is kind of like the multiverse of what would that universe have looked like?

00:32:32 Speaker 5: Yeah. Wouldn't that.

00:32:32 David Artman: Be fun? If there.

00:32:33 Speaker 5: Was that, would.

00:32:34 Jeromy Johnson: I would I would if there's one power in in heaven.

00:32:38 Speaker 5: Whether.

00:32:38 Jeromy Johnson: It's here or up there, it would be that just to be able to see different parallels of life choices, right.

00:32:45 David Artman: If there is a multiverse, I would like to if God says, hey, here's something that's really interesting. In one of the worlds that I created, Christianity actually followed this path, and that was all it was ever known for.

00:32:57 Speaker 5: And the Christians were like.

00:32:58 David Artman: All resolute on this, and here's how it turned out there.

00:33:02 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:33:03 Jeromy Johnson: That would be interesting. But, you know, David, sometimes you have to lose something in order to find it again and see its beauty. You know, we take things for granted. So maybe there's there's some some cool truth in that. Yeah. And I know that you and I, we differ. This is a great conversation. For next time, I'm either on your podcast or next time I have you on my podcast is to look at maybe the different views of your universalism, because I know that you and I differ.

00:33:27 Speaker 5: As we should, on.

00:33:28 Jeromy Johnson: Our view of universalism.

00:33:29 Speaker 5: Right?

00:33:29 Jeromy Johnson: Um, and so I would love to have that conversation. I think that's an important one.

00:33:34 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:33:34 David Artman: Well, now we can the next time it can be a debate, it will both be Christian Universalist, but we'll be disagreeing.

00:33:40 Speaker 5: With each other about our understandings of Christian universalism.

00:33:43 Jeromy Johnson: Then we'll go start our own churches, and then we'll fight against each other. And then we're going to have.

00:33:47 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:33:47 Jeromy Johnson: So maybe that's what happened in that other multiverse.

00:33:50 Speaker 5: They just they.

00:33:51 Jeromy Johnson: Still fought, but it was just from different viewpoints of universalism. Uh, no, that'd be a great conversation. I would love to have with you.

00:33:59 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:33:59 Jeromy Johnson: Parting words. What would you like to say is kind of your last words to our audience here?

00:34:04 David Artman: Well, maybe for people who are. If you haven't ever experienced the Christian faith before. And the reason that you haven't is because you can't believe you can't be Christian, because you can't believe in a God who would make a creation, knowing in advance that all these people would be lost eternally. Well, don't reject Christianity because of that, because that's not an essential part of Christianity. The main part of Christianity is that God is love, and that God has brought Christ into the world to show us that love, and that if it's important to you to believe that that love will ultimately save everybody, that that's a perfectly honorable way to be Christian. It has a long history within the history of the church. You can look back to early church fathers who were saying all kinds of beautiful things. It might be a little difficult to find a church on the corner that shares that particular point of view, but you can still have a beautiful Christian spirituality, and you can still find other people to fellowship with because they're, you know, it might not be a church, but there are other people out in the world that are starting to believe these, you know, these types of things. And then, on the other hand, I would say, if you're somebody that grew up in an evangelical background and you're considering, do I even want to stay Christian? I could understand why you would feel burned and maybe, like, I don't know if I can take a chance again on Christianity, but I just want to say that I think that you can take a chance on this form of Christianity, that although you may not have heard about it before, it's understandable that you wouldn't have heard very much about it. And it's also understandable that you may have heard it disparaged. Yeah, but I think that if you'll look at it, you'll find it has an honorable Christian pedigree and heritage, that it has an adequate biblical foundation. And if you will allow yourself to believe it and to experience the power of it, that it's even more powerful than the evangelicalism that you left before. Because I can say from personal experience, this is the most rewarding spiritual season of my life. Since I have come to believe in universal restoration, I have never felt better about being Christian, never felt more positive Of even in the midst of all the bad stuff that's going on right now, I still look around and I say, all these people, even the people I radically disagree with, they're ultimately all my eternal brothers and sisters, and we're all going to finally be delivered from whatever evil has attached itself in our lives. And I can look at even the mess of this world and say, I believe that God is bringing about going to bring about something beautiful. Just being able to believe that fills me with hope. And it doesn't just for me personally, it doesn't just feel like this sort of fairy tale that I'm believing in, but it has a kind of a deep resonance that it is true. I'll just put it this way if I'm going to be extraordinarily surprised if it isn't true.

00:36:47 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:36:48 David Artman: There is something that deeply resonates with me, that there is a love at the core of all things that is good and true and beautiful, and that we can trust that I see it most clearly in Christ and the beautiful parts of the Christian tradition that saw that and hung on to it. I I'm in. I'm incredibly excited about it. And I don't do this. I don't do the podcast. I don't write the book. I'm not making any money from any of this, really. It's just something that makes me feel good, and it makes me feel happy to get to share this with other people and to get to have conversations with people like you. I mean this I'm not just doing this to help you. It's helps me too, to have these conversations and for me to feel fired up about this, you know, and to share in this. Although it wasn't that much fun debating you when you were being your evangelical past person.

00:37:34 Speaker 5: But I don't.

00:37:35 Jeromy Johnson: Know, it looked like you were having.

00:37:36 Speaker 5: Fun, but I like. But the spirit.

00:37:37 David Artman: That we have of this of being able like, yeah, I think this is real and I'm and I am feeling this and experiencing it and we can share in this together. I just think that's fun and exciting and beautiful.

00:37:49 Jeromy Johnson: No I agree, thank you David. Thank you for being my guest. Thank you for coming on and sharing your voice and your heart and your mind with us. I know I am filled and appreciative.

00:38:00 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:38:00 Jeromy Johnson: And we really do appreciate you.

00:38:02 Speaker 5: Yes.

00:38:02 David Artman: Well, I have now. I have now appeared on the slutty Grace podcast.

00:38:07 Speaker 5: You have? And, uh. Wow.

00:38:09 Jeromy Johnson: For all of history, it's going to be on the internet.

00:38:12 Speaker 5: Yeah. Where? I mean, where do I go?

00:38:14 David Artman: Yeah, where do I.

00:38:15 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:38:15 Jeromy Johnson: How much deeper and lower can you go?

00:38:19 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:38:20 David Artman: How much lower can I get?

00:38:21 Speaker 5: I think I've.

00:38:22 David Artman: Hit.

00:38:22 Speaker 5: Bottom here. Oh, and you know what? It.

00:38:27 David Artman: So, uh, congratulations on your on your, on naming your podcast the the best, best name podcast about grace that's out there.

00:38:36 Speaker 5: All right. Well, I.

00:38:37 Jeromy Johnson: Mean, yours is very soft, very fluffy.

00:38:40 Speaker 5: Right.

00:38:41 Jeromy Johnson: Very cotton candy. Like, just grace saves all.

00:38:44 Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:38:45 Jeromy Johnson: Mine's slutty.

00:38:47 Speaker 5: Right.

00:38:47 David Artman: Yours is much more gritty.

00:38:48 Speaker 5: Gritty, I like it. Yeah, I like it.

00:38:50 Jeromy Johnson: All right. David. Hey, have a good evening. Appreciate you.

00:38:54 Speaker 5: All right.

00:38:54 David Artman: Appreciate you to talk to you later.

00:38:57 Jeromy Johnson: If you grew up hearing that you did not belong, that your questions made you dangerous, that God's love stopped just short of people like you. I want you to hear this. Grace was never that small. This conversation wasn't about winning an argument. It was about opening a window. Maybe for the first time, you caught a glimpse of a God who doesn't deal in ultimatums. A God who restores, who reconciles, who refuses to lose even one. So if you're tired of fear based religion, if you're deconstructing, if you are trying to rebuild something that feels honest and human again, you're not alone and you're loved right now as you are. May that truth travel with you into your week. And may you find grace not just in what you believe, but in how you love, how you forgive, and how you begin again. Remember to walk in grace, and if you can, share that grace.