00:00:00 Jeromy Johnson: Have you ever felt like you've given everything to God, only to wonder if the system that you served was never really built for love? Have you carried both belief and burnout in the same heart? The ache to belong and the urge to run. If so, this conversation is for you. Today I'm sitting down with Steve White. He's a former pastor who spent years in the evangelical church armed with an MDiv from Denver Seminary, and a heart that's both been shaped and scarred by ministry. And his journey has led him towards a universal perspective, a conviction that the ocean of grace poured out through Christ will, in the end consume us all. And somewhere between humor and heartbreak, he's learned to name what so many of us have felt. This is a conversation about loss and laughter, belief and becoming, and the grace that refuses to let go. I'm your host, Jeremy Johnson, and you're listening to Grace. Hey, everyone. My guest today is Steve White. He is a former evangelical pastor with an MDiv from Denver Seminary, who now finds himself standing outside the walls of organized religion. Today, I asked Steve to talk with me about what it looks like to lose your religion but find something bigger, kinder, and truer in its place. Welcome, Steve, and thanks for joining us.

00:01:26 Steve White: Thank you very much, Jeremy.

00:01:28 Jeromy Johnson: All right, dude, I want to ask you, because I know I talked to you on the phone a little bit earlier, and I'm just. I love this conversation. I want to have it with you. Can you give me an overview of kind of your spiritual journey, your early spiritual journey so far?

00:01:44 Steve White: Yeah. You know, I grew up with my mom as a Christian, and my dad kind of tagged along, I think, to keep peace in the family. And, uh, we went through some fairly like, brethren in Christ churches. I kind of walked away from faith and friends and everything in my late teens. Uh, not that I really ever had a faith other than just going to church, because my parents made me go. Got into some some pretty bad stuff. Um, you know, pretty much dropped out of school doing drugs, hanging out, riding the bike, just doing doing the things that you want to do. And, um, through a really bad drug experience and overdose kind of experience at the age of seventeen.

00:02:28 Jeromy Johnson: What year was this about?

00:02:29 Steve White: Well, seventy one eighty one would have been about nineteen eighty seven, nineteen eighty eight. I was I didn't think I was going to live. And my group of people I was with, they couldn't call ambulance or take me to hospital or anything because As they, uh, you know, they don't want to get in trouble for having, uh, this happening. And so they, you know, sort of try to medicate me and diagnose me, you know what I mean? And so I got through that, and my mom had always told me that, you know, when I was ready, you need to come to Jesus. Uh, not really knowing what that was, but, uh, for what it's worth, I thought it was ready. It was, uh, it was transformative. It was a it's kind of, um, evangelical, non-denominational church that they were going to at the time. They had gone away from the traditional and they were going to this place, you know, one of these growing churches with like five services on Sunday out of a warehouse somewhere. I got, um, you know, very involved. And at that time, uh, I had to make a choice. I didn't have to. I chose to to pretty much leave those friends away from the alcohol and the drugs and all that and immerse myself in other things. I also found myself volunteering at their youth group. Those kinds of churches that love church growth, you know, they love when you can be like, hey, this guy's bringing like four hundred kids to the Wednesday youth gathering. And it turned into a paid youth pastor position. I'll briefly just describe, uh, and I'm sorry that some of this is a little raw morally have made some really, really bad choices in my life. And, uh, I'm not going to try to hide from that. So mine ended with, uh, with a moral failure with one of the youth, and, um, turned into a big disaster.

00:04:11 Jeromy Johnson: So you were growing the youth group, and then how long was that going on before you had that?

00:04:16 Steve White: Maybe a year. This this thing that happened with the, um, young lady. I started when I was eighteen. We make terrible choices. Um, but when it came down to, um, one on one with people and, and, uh, not putting up the appropriate boundaries and things like that, I was not prepared for any of those things. And so, um, that turned out to be a horrible deal and a lot of people got hurt, including myself. To be honest, Jeremy, I left that asking, what the hell? Uh, I God, you you you you like, saved me and you, like, put me in this place. And it was then I had all this accolades and it was like, did you did you raise me up here just to push me and watch me fall? I wish none of it ever happened. Uh, that that that was my perspective at the time. It's tough because I couldn't. I can't deny the reality of who God is. God is real and God is relational. And I. You'll never convince me otherwise. However, I didn't like him. I didn't like where we were going. And I didn't like the trick that he played on me.

00:05:20 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, that's. That's what it felt like. Like you've been hoodwinked.

00:05:23 Steve White: Yeah, yeah. Why'd you put me in this place if you knew I was just going to jack it up and hurt people? Some time goes by, I get married, I get settled in, and we decide to start attending a church. My wife and I at the time. With that comes another opportunity church leadership and say, hey, what do you do? Yeah. You know, and I mean, I didn't mention before, but I play the guitar and drums and sing and, you know, you have those things. That's kind of something that got picked up when I was younger and started the same kind of a thing, started playing drums on the worship team once in a while, and pretty soon I'd, you know, lead a song from the guitar. You know, I kind of worked my way into another paid position over some time, and, um, was the actual worship pastor. So taking care of all of the stage setup and Sunday services and delivering the Sunday message sometimes. So I left my construction business and took on this position. My wife, she's an ER nurse and, uh, made pretty good income and I didn't. And at the same time, that's when I went back to school in seminary. Um, you know, I went there, uh, hoping to answer just all of my questions, a lot of them, anyways. And, and I could tell right away that that that wasn't going to happen. I had more questions almost immediately. And I think one of the first classes that I took was a, um, just kind of a do you want to challenge your embedded theology? And I started thinking about it. And, um, I remember some of the books, um, Rodney Stark and some of those things are secular authors writing about the, um, you know, church history and things like that. And at the time, my mind was already focused on, well, this is true. So when Rodney's saying this, this and this, clearly he's wrong. My mind wasn't open. I could only see the world through that lens of that denomination or denominations I'd grown up in. But over time, that started breaking down, and that's where it started for me. Early church history was a big deal for me.

00:07:25 Jeromy Johnson: And you don't learn that in church most of the time. Like, I don't think I've ever heard of many sermons where they talk about how the Bible was voted on by a group of men in in third or fourth century. Uh. And so when you first start hearing it, you're like, wait, wait, wait, what?

00:07:40 Steve White: The early church grew because people died. Sometimes they stopped martyring people because every time they did it, the church would grow exponentially. Thinking at the time and the Christians did things like sit with people outside during the Black Plague that had been abandoned by their families just because they cared and wanted to serve. And I'm see, that cut me to the heart because I don't know anybody who serves like that. I didn't hear a lot of messages of like, well, Paul got up and did this banger of a sermon, and because of that, you know what I mean? You can look in acts, and I suppose you've got the story of the Holy Spirit coming down and people were converted. I understand that, but the Christians were different and they sacrificed, and a lot of times they sacrificed their lives for those that might learn later. And, um, that's deep. That's difficult. I don't know very many people in the church that are willing to sacrifice at that level.

00:08:36 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. I mean, I find myself guilty of even, you know, giving five dollars to a homeless person. I find myself pausing or hesitating, right. Let alone sitting with someone that has the Black Plague or corona. Right. We just got through going through Covid and everything else, and there was a very different response to some of that than probably back then. So you were going through. Um, so you went through seminary and some of the, the assumptions that you had and some of the things that you had that you believed the, let's say, your paradigm of God and religion that started to break down like through like a, like a deconstruction kind of thing or what did that look like?

00:09:16 Steve White: Yeah. I mean, I think at the same time with me, I'm, I'm learning about this and being exposed to a lot of different ideas in the faith. And at the same time, I'm in a very charismatic church as the worship leader and not being feeling fulfilled at all. I had conversations with people almost every Sunday who didn't experience God at the Sunday service and the way that they thought they should, and it was my fault. Or I had hidden sin because I wasn't ushering them into the presence of God. And quite honestly, maybe it's the old rebellious I was like you, you should just shut the f up because that's ridiculous. The whole premise is worship is you coming to give to God. And, um, and then you're going to blame me because you didn't. I just the whole thing was so shallow, and, um, I was so frustrated, and. And then I'm getting introduced to some of these, you know, um, individuals of faith in the early church. And I'm thinking, man, this. What are we doing here? It left a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't like the shallowness of the worship. And I also, um, also didn't like that I wasn't tangibly Serving people like I thought I would as a pastor. And I mean, like like you said, you know, serving the homeless or cutting the grass for the lady down the street who just lost her husband painting a house or whatever it is. I mean, those things.

00:10:43 Jeromy Johnson: So from the outside, you thought like that, being a pastor, being a leader that was more involved in the role in the position was like some of that was happening, not just church meetings and board meetings and Bible study prayer groups, but like as a church leader, you were out there helping and being a part of the community. And you didn't find that to be true?

00:11:03 Steve White: No. Well, even very little of it, because you get caught up in the administration of the next Sunday service. And then there's a Wednesday thing, and then there's all of the things. And I get it. That church is a busy place and there's a lot to be done. So I maybe I was just naive, man, I don't know. In either case, I was disappointed. Uh, I'll share something with you, Jeremy, that I just learned about myself. One of the reasons I'm so mad at church is because I picked that church over my wife, and I loved her, and it ended my marriage. I can't blame them, but there was this pressure, right? Like, uh, the other pastors were there, and they've got the kids there and they've got their wife there. And my wife was an ER nurse, and most of the time worked on Sundays. And we would have these fights at home because she's like, what's more godly? I am working with people on their deathbed or struggling and they're scared and I'm loving them and praying with them. And you're going to like, throw stones at me because I'm not attending the Sunday service.

00:12:07 Jeromy Johnson: As you were feeling the pressure of like, my.

00:12:09 Steve White: Well, yeah, you gotta kind of have this appearance right in the front row. The pastors there and his wife's there, and these cute three kids are sitting in the front row, you know, with their hands in their laps. And my family didn't look like that. I didn't stand up for my wife like I should have. And it cost me.

00:12:26 Jeromy Johnson: I can hear the sadness in your voice.

00:12:28 Steve White: It hurt man. It still does.

00:12:31 Jeromy Johnson: And at the same time, that church experience was deeply empty and disappointing to you.

00:12:36 Steve White: Yeah. When you sum it all together. Um, I decided I wasn't worth it. You've got this deconstructing thing going on. You've got the non-fulfillment. I've got a failing marriage. That's enough. I just like, okay. I'm out. I quit, went back to construction, which is what I do now.

00:12:56 Jeromy Johnson: Where have you landed now? With. With God, with grace. With with just your your relationship with with that.

00:13:04 Steve White: I'm really standoffish with any kind of, um, church or organized, organized religion at this point. However, um.

00:13:13 Jeromy Johnson: But that's not God. That's not grace necessarily.

00:13:15 Steve White: I believe in universal reconciliation, and I believe that grace is way bigger than I ever thought it was. And I know we thought that Grace was big and the church that I was with, and we recognized the miracle of the cross. But it's bigger than that. There aren't all these fences and things that humanity puts on it, and I couldn't. After my second failed situation with church, I couldn't make sense of God. I couldn't make sense of any of it until I started looking at God in this new lens. It doesn't help the hurt of, you know, thousand people getting killed in a tidal wave in Thailand that never knew God. However, grace is bigger and eternity is bigger. This life is short in comparison, and I'm not going to sit there and believe that those people that got wiped out, well, too bad they didn't say the sinner's prayer. That's a real shame that ten year old's going to have to burn in hell now because of that. And it's just I'm not buying any of that because God loves those people. And you see through the Bible all manner of war and death and heck. You look at the flood and you think, well, all these people got wiped out by the hand of God. I can't make all of the answers for God, but it does settle it a little for me, because when Jesus was here, he he talked about the next place. The kingdom of God is for this, right? Yes, you have issues and you have hurts and you have pains here. But he wasn't asking people to put their hope in the present. He was asking people to put their hope in the future. When I landed there, I could start loving God again, praying again, worshiping again.

00:15:02 Jeromy Johnson: Would you say loving? Loving yourself again too?

00:15:05 Steve White: Oh, man, I, I don't like that question at all. But, uh, I'm. I'm hard on myself, man. There's some stuff that have left marks, and I don't know if they haven't healed all the way or I keep pulling the scab off. I have such a deep love for people, but for whatever reason, that same love doesn't always translate back towards myself.

00:15:27 Jeromy Johnson: Well, my hope is, is as you and I and all of us continue to walk in this well, slutty grace. This, this grace that refuses to let go will transform our love for ourselves. So you work in construction. How are you seeing Grace show up in that day to day job?

00:15:47 Steve White: Yeah, with a few people in my world that know my church past, I joke that I have way more opportunity to minister to people in the construction field than I ever did as a pastor. So you get a chance to, um, to share and trust and give opportunity and, um, just I think that's bearing one another's burdens, you know, the, the Latin culture, um, which is a great deal of my workforce. They have an amazing way of loving one another. It's not like they all grew up in the same town and, you know, Guatemala or Mexico. I remember a guy came up and he had a huge debt to the cartels, actually, for getting them over here. Those guys kicked in and paid that guy's debt. And they do this thing where. Yes, every payday, um, they they have a way of of of giving it back and paying back. But other than being, uh, having an understanding of what that person's going through, they weren't related. This isn't family. I don't even know if I would do that for my brother because it was like seven thousand bucks, which is apparently the fee of a coyote or part of it to bring you here. And, um, you know, they took care of that. And, uh, I love that. I really I really do. And so, uh, now we talk about some things that we weren't talking about. This immigration thing is changing. And, um, it's it's scary and there's a lot of tears and there's a lot of fear, and, um, that's hard to work through. I love my guys. They they take pride in what they do and they work hard.

00:17:37 Jeromy Johnson: Are you seeing that as a new arena, new opportunity to show that love and grace is there in this moment of harsh immigration?

00:17:45 Steve White: The laws are the laws. I'm not here to debate that. I love my guys and I'll go to the mat for them. If that means that by me giving them employment, I'm going to get into some sort of trouble, okay? They're my guys, I love them, I know their families, I know their kids. It's it's been it's been a blessing. Uh, I try to serve them, but. Oh, man, they have taught me so much. You shared with me.

00:18:09 Jeromy Johnson: A stat that I think you you trolled online or posted online or something like that. I might be getting the story wrong, but can you walk us through that stat?

00:18:18 Steve White: There's one in particular. Um, I think it's called there is no hate like Christian love. And so I decided, I don't know, maybe because I've got some pent up frustration in there to, to do a search one time. And I wanted to know how many people had ever lived on the planet. I mean, according to Google, uh, from the beginning of humanity till, you know, now or recently, and apparently is one hundred and sixteen billion seven hundred and sixty one million and change people. And then I decided to say, well, how many Christians have there been? Google had a way, and apparently it's somewhere around fifty five billion. And so I do some crude math on all of this. And you think, well, if those fifty five billion are the only ones that are saved, it ends up being approximately six percent of all of humanity.

00:19:11 Jeromy Johnson: Six percent.

00:19:12 Steve White: So, you know, sin gets ninety four percent. Um, Jesus gets six percent. Sins the winner. And it isn't close. That didn't go over real well. Uh, from. That's a stupid comment. That's not true to. Okay, I'm not saying those numbers of the number of people are true, but what I am saying is think about this, this game of life that we're playing, right? Think about all of the people throughout humanity before Christ. And now that would never hear the gospel message that the Western Church is so sure that you have to hear in order to be saved. I've got no problem with Jesus being the only way to the father, but the church is not the only way to Jesus, dude. And if the church is correct, we're not talking about a loving father. We're talking about a creator who lost most of his creation to fire to hell. It's it's a ridiculous Killer's concept, and I only did it like this to make a satire out of it, right? It's. I wanted the reaction, but I remember when I started thinking about these things. Maybe somebody on Facebook is going, okay, that can't quite be right, because it's not right. Not. There's just no way.

00:20:29 Jeromy Johnson: No. And to say that, to say that death has lost its victory and death has lost its sting, and that Jesus has overcome Hades and hell doesn't seem like you. Yeah. How do you say that, then? Depending on where you land on this. Right. So in Romans it says that through Adam all have had the consequences of sin. And then through Christ all have found the forgiveness of sin. I've never been able to sit well with the thought that the majority of God's kids. And you're a father. I'm a father. Can you even imagine?

00:21:04 Steve White: Yeah. It'd be like an eternal punishment to your kid for something they didn't even know they were doing. Yeah, yeah. They didn't. They didn't explain the rules to people. And and too bad. You just gotta be born in the right time in the Western world and say the prayer. Thank God, you know.

00:21:20 Jeromy Johnson: So what has been the cost of your your faith exploration?

00:21:25 Steve White: Um, you know, it's a little lonely. And maybe that's why I'm, you know, uh, talk your ear off Jeremy's because that many people to talk to about this. I tried to, um, attend a church and did for a little while, and, uh, was going to a couple Sunday services in the Bible studies. Um, you know, kind of a food sharing. And people are. People are great. Um, I was pretty much asked to leave because there's just my my view of, uh, various passages and stuff. And universalism is as not part of the doctrine of that particular faith.

00:22:02 Jeromy Johnson: But even with that, they they weren't okay with you just hanging out and being part of their community.

00:22:07 Steve White: Well, I think that that's true. Could I have just gone a bit my tongue and not interjected. When it's time to share about X passage, where I'm going to conflict with what the denomination believes about that.

00:22:21 Jeromy Johnson: So you're saying you'd be like in a Bible study? Yeah.

00:22:23 Steve White: It's not like they threw me out the door, called the cops or something. I mean, it's not like that. It's just that I can't be unauthentic. And I'm not going to just sit there and lie. And if I believe all the people are reading a certain passage and they're believing one thing and I'm like, man, I don't think that's what that means. It's just really difficult. So I'm not exactly welcomed with open arms if I'm going to be confrontational like that.

00:22:47 Jeromy Johnson: Uh, well, to just be fully yourself, right? To express fully what you believe and to, uh, be authentic, I feel like is important. Because if you are going to be in community, that has to be there. Like, I'm not going to be in close relationship with people that I think I would find it hard to be in close relationship if I wasn't able to be my authentic self. What's been the game? What's been the advantage? What have you gained from that faith exploration over the years?

00:23:17 Steve White: Truth. Truth is a big deal. You know how easy it is for me to share my faith. Maybe having a a craft brew with some friends and sitting next to an atheist and we can have an easy, easy conversation.

00:23:29 Jeromy Johnson: Really? Why is that?

00:23:30 Steve White: Because the message truly is good news. I mean, the gospel message so said by the evangelical church is not really good news. And I think maybe that's probably why it was hard to share it. No, we can have this conversation and we can ask what if? And they can say, ah, that's crap. There's no God and I don't have to be like, oh my, you know, I don't have to be like taken aback by that. We can have a conversation and I can just be like, man, it's just, let's, let's talk about who God is. And, you know, the miracle of of life and creation and, and the miracle of who you are and how God separated you and breathed his own breath in you. And you're so different from other creation, and you're loved and valued and all these things. I'll talk to anybody about that.

00:24:12 Jeromy Johnson: You don't feel the need to convince them, necessarily?

00:24:15 Steve White: No. Well, I don't need to, because I know they're under grace anyway.

00:24:19 Jeromy Johnson: Do you want to live in that?

00:24:21 Steve White: Well, that's exactly right. If I accepted the grace, like, just like you pointed out earlier and was a little softer or gentler on myself, like you said. Yeah. There's a lot of value to walking with Christ now. It's not a hell or heaven scenario, but it could be because I've put my life into some places where it felt like hell. You learn a bit about how some of these doctrines kind of took over in the early church. It definitely seemed to be a way to control people. I'm not even disagreeing with the idea that, um, if you've only got a handful of people that know have the Bible and they. So you, you you're are not able to like, research this stuff yourself. And you, you want society to live in a certain way because you you believe that the outline that the Bible shows for humanity is, is probably the best for civilized society. And I agree that that's true. So you, um, tell him a little fib to make sure they kind of kind of do this, right? Um, and so I think these doctrines sort of got developed that way. Right. To control and manage people, you got to put a little fear in them, right? You know, it's, uh, don't ever go in that closet, son, because there's a monster in there, right? Because you, you know, you can convince a little kid of that. It's like, because you don't want him to go in there because his Christmas presents are in there or whatever, right? So you tell him something goofy, and, uh, but it works.

00:25:50 Jeromy Johnson: So what? What would you say? What would you say? The church has gotten right about grace. And maybe that's a hard question for you.

00:25:59 Steve White: Well, well, it is, and knowing it's a good one, because I. I can't sit here and say everything about church is bad. That's not true. There are lots of communities within the community that even though, um, I would disagree with some of the the overarching doctrine, they love each other. They do serve each other. And they I want to say they are open to those who are hurting. And I think the church is opening more because, let's be honest, they're really only open to some that are hurting. There are certain people types, sexual orientations and things like that that come to mind that aren't exactly, exactly embraced with open arms unless they're willing to look at their sin and maybe consider changing. Society would be in a much worse place in general without the church. And I don't I mean, there's wars and all the things in religious wars and stuff, but if society all. conducted themselves based on the models of Christ towards one another and towards their wife.

00:27:10 Jeromy Johnson: What would that look like?

00:27:10 Steve White: That would.

00:27:11 Jeromy Johnson: Be.

00:27:12 Steve White: Everything would be so different. Uh, so I'm not going to discount that because by and large, the church promotes the Bible, and the Bible promotes that.

00:27:22 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, I think there's still a lot of good that comes that can come and does come from from churches that are genuinely seeking to be more like Christ. Sure. How has God been showing up in your life recently?

00:27:35 Steve White: I was thinking about this question. Um, God's been kind of insulating me, possibly carried me more on a day to day basis where I just thought I was just going to absolutely lose it. I don't know what lose it means, but I don't want to go there. That's that's why God is so real. I based on the Christian model, I don't deserve any of this. I'm like like in the in the scales of like Like, well, you know, I'm like, better than Hitler or whatever, and I suppose I'm probably better than Hitler. But no, if I had to depend on that, I've made way too many bad decisions and hurt way too many people. I'm going to the wrong side of this thing if I'm trying to get in on my good works. That's never, ever, in my opinion, mattered to God.

00:28:19 Jeromy Johnson: And we feel sometimes so undeserving. And God's like, no, you are deserving and everyone is deserving.

00:28:25 Steve White: It's hard. That's the hard part is to take it, to accept it, to believe it.

00:28:29 Jeromy Johnson: Steve, thank you for hopping on and sharing your story with us. Um, really appreciate you, brother.

00:28:36 Steve White: Yeah, I appreciate you and thank you for giving me the opportunity to to do it.

00:28:41 Jeromy Johnson: Any last words you want to share?

00:28:42 Steve White: Like I like I said when I last led worship Chris Tomlin. Uh, it's it's been some years. Had a song called good, good Father. And it doesn't get any better than that because as, uh, you're you're a good, good father. That's who you are. And I'm loved by you. That's who I am. If you remember only two things in life, remember that God is good and you are loved.

00:29:06 Jeromy Johnson: God is good and you are loved. Yes. All right. Thanks, Steve.

00:29:09 Steve White: Appreciate you brother.

00:29:13 Jeromy Johnson: It's a strange thing, isn't it? How grace waits in the ruins that we thought disqualified us. Steve's story is a reminder, at least to me, that losing everything doesn't mean you've lost yourself. It just means the pretending is over. That grace doesn't rush redemption. It walks with us on that long road toward self-forgiveness, through the mess and the memories that we wish we could erase. And maybe that's what redemption really is. Not getting back what we lost, but finally believing we were loved the whole time. Thank you for joining this conversation. Remember to walk in grace and if you can, share that grace.