00:00:00 Jeromy Johnson: What happens when the story you built your whole life on begins to crack? When the God you were taught to fear no longer matches the God you've begun to experience. And what do you do in the community that once celebrated you now feels conditional? In today's conversation, Leslie Niece shares how her deeply evangelical world began to fracture after being on CBS's reality show survivor. Not from scandal, but from listening, really listening to people that she'd been warned about. People she'd been taught were dangerous Buddhist Mormons and gay flight attendants. Their goodness cracked something open in her questions she wasn't allowed to ask flooded in. And the fear based religion. She served as a speaker, radio host and ministry leader no longer made sense. This isn't a story about leaving faith. It's a story about finally coming home to it. I'm your host, Jeremy Johnson, and you're listening to slutty Grace. I am so excited to have Leslie Neece on today. Leslie is a name some of you might remember. It was eighteen years ago, but she was on Survivor China. But her real survival story came later when her faith began to unravel. Once a conservative evangelical radio host and speaker, Leslie found herself deconstructing everything that she thought that she knew about God, love and worthiness. Her new book, Honoring the Journey The Deconstruction of Sister Christian, is a raw, beautiful account of what happens when uncertainty falls apart and Grace rushes in. Leslie, welcome.

00:01:39 Leslie Nease: I love that introduction. Thank you. Jeremy. It's so good to be here. I'm thrilled.

00:01:43 Jeromy Johnson: You're very welcome.

00:01:45 Leslie Nease: Yes. It's so fun to be on this side of the mic as a guest. Usually I'm hosting my own, so.

00:01:50 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, no. Thank you so much for for being here. It's funny, I have a and we'll talk survivor just for a brief moment. I have a buddy of mine who's literally watched every episode, every season. I told him, I said, hey, I might be interviewing someone that was on survivor, and he was like, is it Leslie? I think she was like one of the only Christians that was on that show that was like very adamant about her faith.

00:02:10 Leslie Nease: Wow, that's a fan right there. That's a survivor fan.

00:02:13 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. Super fan. He wants to go on it. But he's like at fifty and he's like, I don't know, I'm too old. I'm like, dude, you're not too old. He's like, I don't know if they would choose me. I'm like, okay, whatever, dude.

00:02:22 Leslie Nease: He could kill it if he. It's all it's all attitude, all of it.

00:02:25 Jeromy Johnson: So you're on Survivor China? There was something that happened there, obviously. That's pretty notorious, maybe depending on where you're coming from. But just to give some people some context, because my next question is going to be about your spiritual journey. So this might help set the stage of kind of like where you were at beforehand.

00:02:43 Leslie Nease: Well, um, I'm going to I'm going to kind of go back just a little bit. I kind of surrendered my life to Jesus. I guess you could say if you've if you've been in church, you know what that means. That means you gave it all and you stopped doing all the bad things and started doing all the good things. And, you know, you're trying to be a good witness and all of that. And I was a Christian radio host, and I started that in two thousand and four. So literally a year after I gave my life to Jesus, I was on the radio telling people about him.

00:03:08 Jeromy Johnson: Were you on radio before that or was that you?

00:03:11 Leslie Nease: Those things? I had no radio experience. I just loved to talk. And I'm. I'm a communicator. It's kind of always been my thing. And I had been auditioning for survivor since about two thousand and one. And so every six months I would do this new survivor audition video and send it in and try to get on the show. And so I was really used to doing that. And when I found out they were looking for a morning show co-host at the local Christian radio station, I did what I know how to do. I made an audition video.

00:03:38 Speaker 4: They were like, what are we going to do with this? This girl's crazy.

00:03:42 Leslie Nease: This is why I would be such a great morning show co-host. You know, I did the whole survivor thing, but, like.

00:03:46 Jeromy Johnson: Bubbly and.

00:03:47 Leslie Nease: Stuff. Yeah. Very bubbly. And I'm a new Christian, but I think there's a lot of people listening who are new, and I feel like I think it would be a really good way to sort of grow up with the listeners instead of being there and being like, I know everything, you know? Yeah. And, um, and it really did work out that way. It was beautiful. I loved my job, but it is funny, when I interviewed, I said, I auditioned for survivor every six months and one day I'm going to get picked. And so I need you to know right up front that when they call, I'm dropping everything and I'm going. And he was like, that is so cool. Would you jump out of an airplane? And I was like, yeah. And so my first job, I guess, you know, or big promotion as the morning show co-host, was to jump out of an airplane with a bunch of dads who won a contest for Father's Day. Yeah. Terrified of heights, you know. But I did it because I was like, hey, you live once, right? And then it was. And that was like two thousand and four. And so fast forward to two thousand and seven, I finally got a call and I knew it. I knew as soon as I got the phone call, I was like, oh, they're gonna put me on this show, I know it.

00:04:47 Jeromy Johnson: Oh, you must have just exploded in excitement.

00:04:50 Leslie Nease: Oh, you have no idea. It was amazing. It was the it was the coolest moment. Yeah, as a matter of fact, when they first called, I thought somebody was, like, pulling a prank because everybody knew I was trying out her. Her name was Donna. She's like, this is Donna. I'm from Survivor Casting. And I said, shut up. Like. And I was like, on my way to target because my kids, she had something due the very next day, and I was in a really bad mood because she waited until the night before to start this huge project, and we were going to go buy some supplies, and I had to pull over when I realized it was legit and I was like, oh my gosh. And she said, well, you know, have you tried out? I said, yeah, I've tried out eleven times. You should have seen eleven videos for me. And she's like, huh, that's interesting. And I said, to be honest, we prayed every time we would send out the application and the video. My husband and I would literally lay our hands on the application and we would pray and we'd say, Lord, if it's time, have them call. If it's not, I don't even want them to call me because I don't want to get my hopes up. I only want to call when I know it's time I said so. I guess that means I need to go pack my bags because I'm going on survivor. And she loved that answer. It was so funny. I was so confident. Yeah, I went on the show.

00:05:54 Jeromy Johnson: That is so cool.

00:05:55 Leslie Nease: I'm finally living my dream. It was everything. Like, I wanted this so bad. And I wish I could explain to you why. Yeah, but even when we surrendered our lives to Jesus in two thousand and three, I had already been auditioning a couple years. I remember talking with my husband and I said, okay, I still feel like I should be doing survivor, so we really need to pray about this. And he's like, really? Why? I'm like, I don't know. I felt like God was telling me to do this. You know, I tried out so many times with no phone call at all that I was like, maybe this is God's way of keeping me humble.

00:06:27 Jeromy Johnson: Like, and they love the typecast a little bit too, right? So this Christian radio host, that can be gold.

00:06:33 Leslie Nease: It's what they were looking for. Yeah. They wanted they wanted a strong believer because of the very first challenge, which wasn't a challenge, but it was for me. You know, I'm so sold out for Jesus at this point. You know, it'd been like, yeah, I think four years of just fully immersed in ministry. I wrote a book, I was on the radio, I was teaching people about how to walk out their faith and what it meant and what it looked like, and all of a sudden we get up there and they're like, you need to walk up five hundred stairs with all of your luggage, okay? And once we got up there, about halfway up, I started smelling incense and I was like, oh no, oh, we're going to.

00:07:09 Jeromy Johnson: The evil incense.

00:07:10 Leslie Nease: Yeah.

00:07:11 Jeromy Johnson: Like, yeah.

00:07:12 Leslie Nease: You know, the only thing I knew about incense is that people burn it when they smoke pot or it's in a Buddhist temple. And so.

00:07:18 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:07:19 Leslie Nease: Yeah, it was a Buddhist temple. And we got up there and I was like, oh, crap.

00:07:22 Jeromy Johnson: And for a new Christian, you don't want to be defiled. You don't want to like, put yourself in places that are gonna, I don't know, rot your spiritual life.

00:07:30 Leslie Nease: Well, and I'm on the radio and I'm like, I was so afraid to make God look bad. I was so afraid to say something that would make me lose my job or make people judge me. I mean, you know how judgmental Christians can be. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you do. I do. And so I was very, um. I wasn't myself on the show. I was myself as far as what I allowed myself to be. But I really tried to hold back that part of me that really wanted to be on survivor and, like, play this game. And even though it's totally fine to manipulate and lie and, you know, play the game the way it's supposed to be played, you know, I've also got this persona. I'm representing the God of the universe. And, you know, I'm like, oh, they don't like me. They're not going to like God. I mean, the whole thing they teach you in church. Yeah. You might be the only Bible people ever read. You know.

00:08:19 Jeromy Johnson: God, I can just feel the pressure on your shoulders. Right? Here you are. National TV on at that time, the most popular.

00:08:25 Leslie Nease: Oh, yeah. Fifteen million people watched it. And, I mean, I didn't know that's what was going to happen, but like, I knew people were going to be watching. And so we get up there and I, you know, we get to the top. And we did a bunch of things in the temple and, um, and then at the very end, they wanted us to bow before this huge statue of Buddha. Now, right before we went into this temple to start all the things that we did, we were there for like an hour and a half. They only show like ten minutes. But right before they took us in there, they said, if you offend these Chinese people in any way, we are taking you out of the game and we're putting your alternate in. So now I'm like, oh gosh, if I stand up for my faith, am I going to get pulled out of the game? Well, when they wanted us to bow, there was no way I was doing it, so I walked out.

00:09:09 Jeromy Johnson: So now it's like this martyr moment.

00:09:11 Speaker 5: Oh, God. Yes.

00:09:13 Leslie Nease: Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, you know, it was like the whole apparently. And I hear this every time people hear about that story is they're like, you know, it was like the Super Bowl for Christians when we saw you just get up and walk out and and I was like, yeah, you know, and you start to kind of feel like this hero, like, yeah, I'm so strong in my faith. Look at me. I'm so good. So I walked out and, you know, Jeff, of course, said something. He we were all standing there and I didn't realize somebody else had walked out, too. Um, this guy named John Robert, he was on my tribe, and he is a a poker player from Las Vegas. He asked him first. Jeff said, so, John, why did you walk out? He goes, I don't know, I'm just not religious. It felt weird to me. That's all he said. And then he looked at me. He's like, So Leslie. And I was like.

00:09:58 Jeromy Johnson: Oh.

00:09:58 Leslie Nease: Crap, you know, what about you? And I said, well, I'm. I said, I'm not a religious person, but I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, and I'm only going to put my face on the floor for him. And he said, but I told you this wasn't religious. I said, well, it felt that way to me. And he's like, are you afraid of how this is going to make you look in the game? And I said, no, I'm going to play the game and be me. If they like me, great. If they don't, I'll deal with that in the story. But when I said I'm not religious, I said either. I said I'm not religious either, but I have a relationship because I was playing off with John. Robert said, well, they didn't show him on the show, so they took out the word either. And it looked like I was just, you know, bomb dropping this. I'm not religious, but I have a relationship with Jesus. So I kind of ticked off some of the Christians there, like, why would you say you're not religious? And I'm like, there's a difference. There's a relationship and religion. And, you know, we're taught this in Christianity. This is not a religion. We are not a cult. We are this we are this is a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's so different than religion. And so I kind of played off of that, and I kind of leaned into it. And, you know, everybody on the show asked me why and and you know, what did that mean? And I thought, you're a Christian radio host. What do you mean, you're not religious? And so it was just an interesting thing. But in my experience on survivor, I was able to meet people from different walks of life. Like one girl was a Buddhist. She was so sweet. PG. And and then another, you know, was a former Christian. And and then there was Todd. I love this kid. He's he's one of my besties. And we actually do another podcast together called Beyond the Torch, and we interview people who've been on the show and like, talk about their stories. But he was a gay Mormon flight attendant, and I didn't know.

00:11:42 Jeromy Johnson: It doesn't get any more like dangerous for a Christian than me, like a gay Mormon flight attendant.

00:11:47 Leslie Nease: They wanted us to duke it out. They were ready for like, fireworks. But something very bizarre happened. I got out there and all of a sudden, for the first time in my life, I started listening instead of talking. I was used to being the one to talk. I was on the radio, I was speaking, I was writing books, I was teaching, I was doing Bible studies, running women's ministries, and just doing the whole speaking circuit. But for the first time in my life, I had nothing but time. There was no distractions, and it was just these people that I got to know, and they all wanted to tell me their religion story. Everybody, once they find out you're a Christian. Well, I went to church once when I was ten, you know.

00:12:26 Jeromy Johnson: It's really.

00:12:27 Leslie Nease: So. But it opened a door and everybody shared, and I kind of left conflicted. Like we tell homosexuals that they're going to hell because they're choosing their lifestyle over a relationship with God. That was what I was taught. So I came back and started asking questions about that. And people didn't like it so much.

00:12:49 Jeromy Johnson: So survivor, ironically, from what you're saying, was kind of like a little bit of your turning point because you finally broke out of that Christian bubble. Here you are with Buddhist and Mormon flight attendants who are gay and, you know, all these other people, and you're listening to them and you're like, these people are actually really wonderful people. Yeah. Yeah. And that started to crack open that door a little bit.

00:13:12 Leslie Nease: You know what? And I don't know that I even realized that's what was happening at the time. Yeah. I feel like in that moment, I just kind of got a little confused, you know what I mean? Like, I was I was kind of like, I came home and before I went on survivor, my, when I would speak at churches, it was always Identity in Christ. How to live your faith out. How to be in the world and not of the world. You know, I was very gross. It was syrup. You know what I mean? Like. Yeah. Um, like the Proverbs thirty one.

00:13:40 Jeromy Johnson: That's what we knew. Yeah. And it made sense. And it was beautiful, right? Yeah.

00:13:44 Leslie Nease: Yeah. And it was beautiful. And it was. It meant so much to me. Like, I'm not downplaying that. It was. I was very passionate about it. But when I came home, I noticed that my my messages were changing. Um, instead of telling them about identity in Christ and like, yay, we're the best, and you can be amazing. It was like I was taking back the message to them that the world sees us as kind of villainous. Like the way that they describe their experiences in church was difficult for me to hear. When I first found out that Todd was gay. It's because I said to him, not knowing he was gay. Uh, I was like, so what struggles have you had to overcome in your life that have made you the man that you are today? And I do this like I am not. I don't want to hear about how hungry you are or, you know, your conquests or what? I want to know you. So this is just a question. But he immediately assumed that it was my way of seeing if he was gay. And he goes, is this your way of saying it? And I was like, what are you talking about? Are you gay? And he was like, yeah. He goes, so I guess now you don't want anything to do with me, right?

00:14:47 Jeromy Johnson: Wow.

00:14:48 Leslie Nease: And he told me about how he had been treated in the Mormon church because of his sexuality. And he's like, what do you think of that? I said, I don't think it really matters what I think about it. Like it's between you and God. Like it's none of my business, right? And I don't know that I felt good saying that because I felt like, oh, Leslie, this was your opportunity to witness and tell him the truth and blah, blah, blah, but I just couldn't. Wow. It felt.

00:15:08 Jeromy Johnson: Icky. Yes.

00:15:09 Leslie Nease: And I didn't like it.

00:15:10 Jeromy Johnson: So it's almost like you. You're in this Christian bubble. You're told limit your friendships, right? Of non-Christians like you can witness to them, but like, don't have your best friend be a non-Christian. You're really taught to be isolated and not to get to know a lot of people of the world because they might influence you.

00:15:29 Speaker 5: Right.

00:15:30 Jeromy Johnson: And then sometimes the first time you start actually having conversations with people, quote unquote, of the world, it can be really life changing, like with Todd.

00:15:39 Leslie Nease: And it can be either life changing or curiosity ending.

00:15:43 Jeromy Johnson: You have to have that curiosity.

00:15:44 Leslie Nease: Yeah, you do. And I didn't even know I had that until I went on survivor. And so I just kind of leaned into it.

00:15:50 Jeromy Johnson: Interesting.

00:15:50 Leslie Nease: And started asking questions and people I remember asking somebody who was like, really? He like, taught hermeneutics at the local Christian university, right? So this guy, like, knew his stuff. And I was like, so explain to me why homosexual, you know, why is that such a bad sin? And he was like, well, Leslie, it's an abomination. And I was like, oh. And he's like, yeah, God can't like, no, like that's bad. And so I looked up abominations and there's like hundreds of them in the Bible. And some of them are really, really crazy, like, like don't mix fabrics. It's an abomination. Like, don't eat shellfish.

00:16:25 Jeromy Johnson: Yes. Women don't wear don't wear makeup.

00:16:27 Leslie Nease: It's an abomination. Don't you know? Don't cut your hair. Don't you know all that? And I'm like. So. Okay. All of these. We know those are stupid, right? But why are we elevating this one? And. And then to find out later that the word homosexual wasn't even put in the Bible until nineteen forty six. And I was like, what was the word before? And then when you see what the word was before, it was the word that was used. And I can't remember the word, but it was the word that was used to describe a man who would have sex with other men as an assertion of power over them. It was disgusting. It was somebody taking advantage of another person.

00:16:58 Jeromy Johnson: Like Epstein type stuff.

00:16:59 Leslie Nease: Absolutely. Then I was like, whoa, wait a minute. So here I thought God himself wrote the Bible. So then I start questioning the Bible, all these questions, and I was like, crap. So then I'm like, this is the first time I've ever said this out loud. I think I may have picked up a demon from that temple. I think because I'm all of a sudden.

00:17:18 Jeromy Johnson: Sorry. I don't mean to laugh.

00:17:19 Leslie Nease: No, but it's so funny now because I'm so.

00:17:21 Jeromy Johnson: Perfect, though. Yes.

00:17:23 Leslie Nease: Anything that's different than what you're taught. If you start questioning it, you're like, oh my gosh, there's something wrong with me. Right. Yeah. Because everybody is so sure.

00:17:30 Jeromy Johnson: You've been possessed by by Satan himself.

00:17:34 Leslie Nease: And so, you know, I started to be afraid and but then in twenty sixteen, when, you know, politics kind of entered the scene with the church, I mean, I guess it had always kind of been mingled. But this was bad because people I really respected, who I really trusted, like, thought that I had something wrong with me because I couldn't see that Donald Trump was the absolute best decision for us to be able to get done what we needed to get done as evangelicals. There was nothing that they could do to convince me that this was a good idea, and the only argument they had was, well, it's better than the other choice. And I'm like, no, it's actually kind of not. I would rather have somebody who is saying that they're not Christian than somebody who says they are, but doesn't act like it. And we're like, backing him up, you know? Yeah. I mean, I remember Franklin Graham even saying, we're not electing a pastor. We're electing a president. All of a sudden, these very strong believers who I really respected were making excuses for Donald Trump. That was when I left the church was twenty sixteen.

00:18:37 Jeromy Johnson: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It was all about the end. It doesn't matter what the means of getting there was. It was just all about the end.

00:18:44 Leslie Nease: And it was power. They were drunk with power. They couldn't even see it. They went up on that mountain, just like Jesus did. And when they were given that, you could have all the power, if only you bowed to this. And they said, okay.

00:18:57 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, just feed me.

00:18:58 Leslie Nease: And I did. And I got to the point. Honestly, Jeremy, think about it. Like where you're like, oh, if they're if they're deceived about this, what else are they getting wrong? Yeah. And that's when I went on a very deep, like long, arduous, very quiet. And for me, that's a big deal because I'm a talker. Deconstruction journey. I didn't talk to anybody about it because, wow, I thought I had a demon. I thought I was, you know, being deceived. I mean, literally everything that people call me that I'm like, yeah, I used to call myself that too. Don't worry about it. We're good.

00:19:28 Jeromy Johnson: So you kind of looked at their choice with that and said, if this is true, what else is true? Then right of this direction we're going? Because I agree with you. This seems like pretty low hanging fruit. Like name one message of Jesus that aligns with that administration. Like, you can't you can't give me a verse.

00:19:42 Leslie Nease: No.

00:19:43 Jeromy Johnson: One of the things that got me connected with you, which I always look at like, I don't know the the universe and how things just happen and connect. Like, I don't think there's any happy accidents. No, but you had written something about being a heretic, right? And I'm gonna literally quote it to you because it was beautiful. Uh, heretic is one who chooses is really what that means. Just one who makes a choice.

00:20:04 Leslie Nease: Yeah, it's what the word means. Literally.

00:20:07 Jeromy Johnson: And then you said it became a slur used by systems that couldn't survive independent thought. Yeah, but asking those questions didn't make me rebellious. It made me honest. It made me whole. Like, I love that it became a slur used by systems who can't survive independent thought. And I think there's some truth to that, because you started to now go down this road of deconstruction, which I guess is a big word. It just means someone who's tearing apart their their old structure of faith and then rebuilding it. It isn't a destruction, but it's a deconstruction. Yeah.

00:20:42 Leslie Nease: And I would I would even argue I'm not really deconstructing my faith because my faith is stronger than ever. I'm deconstructing my religious dogma.

00:20:51 Jeromy Johnson: It's a great point.

00:20:52 Leslie Nease: The things that I've been taught to believe as truth. Do I really believe this? And and what? What is the standard that I hold up to it? Because that's what everybody wants to know, especially Christians. They're like, oh, well, well what's standard then? Because you're not you're not reading the Bible. It's like, no, I actually am. And I'm looking at, okay, does this reflect the life of Jesus Christ? Number one. And number two, will this also reflect love?

00:21:18 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:21:18 Leslie Nease: Because if God is love, which the Bible says, God is love, then anything that God does is going to. It's going to be like effervescent love. You will be drawn to it, not opposed to it. You know, people are like, yeah, but like the truth is offensive. I'm like, no, the truth is not offensive. You know what is offensive? It's only offensive to people who are offensive. Like, I'm offended when I'm the one doing the offending. That'll that'll tick me off. And I think a lot of times the truth that Jesus spoke pissed people off so much that that's why he went on that cross.

00:21:51 Jeromy Johnson: Totally.

00:21:51 Leslie Nease: He pissed off two systems that are in bed together politics, religion. And now we're seeing this whole thing all over again. And yet, who's the heretics? Jeremy. Me and you. Yeah. Like, come on, you guys, wake up. Yeah, you know what I mean?

00:22:05 Jeromy Johnson: And I'll wear that badge if people want to label that on me, like.

00:22:08 Leslie Nease: It's.

00:22:08 Jeromy Johnson: Fine.

00:22:08 Leslie Nease: Cool.

00:22:09 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, it means nothing to me. But evidently it means everything to you to just keep this system of separation going if you want to keep that going. And if that separation is something that you really want, then go for it. And this is going to be a helpful word for you. But for me, go.

00:22:25 Leslie Nease: For.

00:22:25 Jeromy Johnson: It. It's meaningless.

00:22:27 Leslie Nease: To me. It doesn't mean anything except I chose a different way of thinking, which is exactly what the word means.

00:22:33 Jeromy Johnson: And you find like you're choosing your your own faith. Yeah. So my past experiences, it was always I was told what to believe. Right? Like this is the correct thing. This is the thing. This is how this verse is translated is what this passage means. And you're just you're told by pastors, you're like, this is what you need to believe. Yeah. It sounds like you're finding the freedom finally to like, I'm going to follow my gut. I'm going to follow my intuition, I'm going to follow my understanding, and I'm going to study stuff for myself, and I'm going to build my own faith.

00:22:58 Leslie Nease: Absolutely. And to be honest, because I know that scares Christians, if they hear me say, I'm going to follow my own intuition, they're like, ah, your heart is deceitful. To be honest, I do have a template, I really do. It's not just my internal intuition, which I'm thankful for now. It's the life of Christ. I don't think people understand. I am not walking away from Jesus. Everybody's like, you're turning your back on Jesus. You're taking people to hell. I followed Jesus right out of the church because Jesus didn't fit. He didn't fit. Yeah, he you know what I mean. Like, his teachings were nothing but love and inclusion and kindness and goodness. And even when he came up against people and he let them know what was up, it was always the religious people, the ones trying to get people in their shackles again. And Jesus is like, no, my burden is light. My yoke is easy. Like, you don't need that. You don't need these religions to get you to heaven. You already have. You already have heaven in you. The kingdom of God is in you. Yes, that was his message. His message wasn't. You're a bunch of stupid sinners and I'm here to save you from yourselves. That was not his message. That is the message of the evangelical church. Jesus Christ's message was, hey, I'm here to remind you who you are. Because to me, I don't look at sin as the bad things we do anymore. I don't see it. I see sin as forgetting that you are already connected to God. And the minute you forget that, you start making choices that harm not only other people, but yourself. And that is what sin to me is, is when you don't realize you don't have to do anything. You don't have to say a prayer. You don't have to show up to church every Sunday. You don't have to do anything because Jesus said, he is already in you. And he said, if you would just remember that, if you would just accept that, then you can do even greater things than me. I'm here just to remind you. Wait until you see what you can do with this knowledge when it finally sets in. And that's the freedom that I'm in now.

00:24:57 Jeromy Johnson: Leslie, that's so beautiful. Like, I'm seriously have goosebumps. Like, could you do you find there's so much freedom in this? Like that burden you felt in that Buddhist temple? Like, if you were to go back there now, you'd be like, sweet. Like, this is going to be fun. Like, I get to now explore this other culture and what's their connection with God and how and maybe how can I learn a little bit from that?

00:25:20 Leslie Nease: And totally.

00:25:21 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, then the kingdom is here. It's in you. And fear just, I don't know, like there is no fear in perfect love.

00:25:29 Leslie Nease: Because perfect love casts out fear. And I am a living example of that. I was afraid of everything, Jeremy. I was afraid that I was going to make God look bad. Okay, number one, I am not that powerful. All right? And number two, that's ridiculous. And so that was a fear I had. I was afraid I, you know, may not have said the prayer right. And I might go to hell when I die because the whole thing, the whole message of evangelical Christianity is, if you don't believe this way and express it in this way, you will die and go to hell and be separated for all of eternity from God, and you will burn. Your skin is literally going to burn off you forever and ever. Well, that doesn't sound like a loving God. That is somebody that we would literally throw in jail if they treated their children that way. And yet that's how we see God. And then when we try to question it, they go, oh, his ways are not our ways. They're higher. And it's like, no, that does not track. It doesn't track. So I had to deconstruct hell. Thank God. Oh my gosh. I remember the day I woke up and I went, oh it's over, I'm done. I'm on the other side of hell. I love this. And I tell people all the time, Jeremy, I lived in hell when I believed in it. That's what hell is. Hell is when you think there's a hell. Because your whole life is absolute anxiety and depression and just wanting people to know the quote unquote truth.

00:26:53 Jeromy Johnson: You do. You start to question, like, if you go too far off, like, did I lose my salvation? But you can't lose your salvation. So you're like, maybe I never had it. I always had it.

00:27:01 Leslie Nease: You've always had.

00:27:02 Jeromy Johnson: It.

00:27:02 Leslie Nease: It's that was the message of Jesus. Go back and read the Bible, but read it from a lens of love. You know, not the lens of judgment. And he came to save you from your nasty self, you know, because you're such a sinner. God can't even look at you. That's ridiculous. You are beautiful just the way you are.

00:27:20 Jeromy Johnson: And a love that's not withheld. No. We're taught he loves you. But that can only go so far because your belief is actually more powerful than his love. In evangelicalism, because your belief is the thing that triggers God's love to be applied. Right? And it's the thing that keeps you from hell. And without that belief, God's hands are tied. And that's where you're going. So it's like, that is just nutso and crazy. And just like you looked at homosexuality in the Bible, as soon as you start looking at hell, you're like, wait, that's not even really.

00:27:53 Leslie Nease: What that meant. Yeah, yeah. Like it's crazy. Now I totally it totally tracks. I guarantee you, if you do this work, if you figure these things out and and the way that you do it, let me give you a template because I also coach people through this. Like the worst.

00:28:07 Jeromy Johnson: Template. Leslie. Go for it. Okay. Number one.

00:28:09 Leslie Nease: first thing you do in deconstruction. Number one trust. Okay. Trust that God has you. And if you're really, like, strong in Christianity and you're just starting this journey and you're scared, I want you to know there is a verse. I can't remember the address. It does say that God will not give up on you until the day of completion. So if you believe that to be true, then I promise you this road that you're going to take. He's not leaving you. So trust that I know that's the first thing we do is we get scared.

00:28:36 Jeromy Johnson: That's awesome.

00:28:37 Leslie Nease: But then I have everybody write down a list of, you know, different things that they believe within their faith. Some of them, sometimes they work with Mormons, sometimes they work with evangelical Christians. Whatever. Write down everything that you're afraid of. You're going to be surprised how long this list is. Um, and be honest, like, just it just just you. Nobody has to see this but you. And then take every single one of those things and look into where they came from. Look into the original Christian church, look into what Jesus said, and then look at it and say, yeah, but could he have meant this instead? Yeah. And how many times did Jesus say you've heard it said this? But I tell you this.

00:29:13 Jeromy Johnson: Yes, yes.

00:29:14 Leslie Nease: He was showing us, man looks at these rules that were given and they elevate them over having relationships with people. They elevate the rules over loving people. And Jesus is like, listen, I know you've heard this, but here's what I'm saying. It's all about the heart. The ox, for instance, the ox. On Sunday, people weren't helping them out of the ditch because they were like, well, it's Sunday, we're not allowed to work. We gotta. It's a rule. And Jesus is like, screw the rule. Go get that ox out of what? Are you going to let this ox down? And that's going to affect the family. It's going to affect the people. Think about the most loving thing. And that's the way when Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, that's what he meant. That is what he meant. He didn't mean I'm the way to heaven. He was like, I am the way to life right now because I just base my decisions on love and what is the most loving, kind, compassionate thing for me to do. And when he was most angry, he was most angry at the church. Yeah, it wasn't a church yet, but he was most angry at the religious people. He let him have it. He said words that were like cuss words back then. I don't think people realize that when you called somebody a whitewashed tomb, you were calling him a son of a bitch. The things that he called religious people. Yet religious people are now calling other people this who don't believe the way they do. It's so freaking ironic, isn't it?

00:30:34 Jeromy Johnson: You're twice the son of Gehenna. Oh, right. Like he's, like, doubling it up.

00:30:38 Leslie Nease: Do you know what an insult that was to them?

00:30:40 Jeromy Johnson: Oh, it was horrible because they were first.

00:30:43 Leslie Nease: You're a brood of vipers. Jesus Christ himself said that to people. If he said that to me, I would be devastated.

00:30:48 Jeromy Johnson: Well, but he would use our own language. Like whatever brood of vipers meant to them. He'd be.

00:30:52 Leslie Nease: He'd use it now.

00:30:53 Jeromy Johnson: Yes. So for number two, you think, like he would be saying, hey, you've heard it said in Mormonism or Evangelicalism, but I tell you, do you think he'd be using that same language right now?

00:31:03 Leslie Nease: I believe he would be using the language that we have in this moment. He would say what we needed to hear in order to understand, and that's what I wish people would do more of. Instead of looking at like, well, that's what the Bible says. Okay, but what did Jesus say? And does it line up with that? Because I don't know if we have the correct translation. And and I do think his message was so much more about the heart and about love and about following the way of God. I would not say that I'm an atheist at all, but I am an atheist to the God that I was taught about the evangelical Christian God, the one who's ready to slap you on the wrist or throw you into hell if you do something wrong or believe something wrong, or don't do it the right way. That doesn't make sense to me. That doesn't track. So God, to me now is the soil that we're all planted in. It's the consciousness that we all share. It is that thing that brings us all together in humanity and the things that separate that. Like when we're told in evangelical Christianity, when we are told that we are separated from God because of our sin. See that tract with me? Because I had a really hard relationship with my dad growing up and I was like, well, of course, of course I'm separated from God. I'm a piece of $#!%, right? And so that totally made sense to me. And I have found so many times, a lot of the times when people accept this quote unquote good news gospel, they're at their lowest.

00:32:20 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:32:20 Leslie Nease: Because they're like, well, this tracks.

00:32:22 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, they're at rock bottom.

00:32:24 Leslie Nease: And so what do I have to do to make it right? Because I have to do something right. Because I'm a human doing. I'm not a human being. I'm a human doing. I gotta do, do, do I gotta get all done. I gotta make sure God loves me and make sure he forgives me so I can be connected to God. Yeah. Do you see what happens when you don't realize you're already connected to God? Yeah. You get desperate. You don't make good decisions when you're desperate. I feel like I'm preaching right now. Sorry.

00:32:48 Jeromy Johnson: No, it's.

00:32:49 Leslie Nease: It's just so.

00:32:50 Jeromy Johnson: Gorgeous. I feel like if you feel like you've had a lot.

00:32:53 Leslie Nease: I've done a lot of work, I've done a lot of work, and I'm still going to do a lot of work.

00:32:58 Jeromy Johnson: And what's cool, I mean, so some of the great things, like as evangelicals is like, we are passionate about this stuff. And so when we find like a new way what this could be even better and bigger than I ever thought.

00:33:10 Leslie Nease: And it is.

00:33:11 Jeromy Johnson: The largeness of God is so much more massive. I didn't think back then like how small he was, but I look back now and I'm like, that was small. That was a small love. That was a small god. Yeah, and I don't mean that as an insult. It was just like my understanding.

00:33:27 Leslie Nease: Um, no, it's not an insult, but it's not who God is. That's what you don't understand. Like that isn't God. No, that is a made up religious stereotype, you know, or whatever. The god that I was talking about is a little g God. Because I'm telling you, the love that God has for his children is outrageous. And as a mom, it just never pours.

00:33:49 Jeromy Johnson: Because when you say children, that always meant something different as an evangelical. So you said.

00:33:54 Leslie Nease: People who.

00:33:55 Jeromy Johnson: Love that God has for his children. What do you mean by children?

00:33:57 Leslie Nease: Now, every human being born on the face of the earth. I remember thinking. Unless you believe the way I did, you were deceived and you were going to hell. Which meant, I don't know, seventy percent of the world is going to hell. So why would God create seventy percent of the world, knowing full well that they would reject him and go to hell? Why would he allow them to even be born? How is that loving? I apologize for my dogs. I don't know what's going on. There must be an Amazon.

00:34:23 Jeromy Johnson: We love dogs. We love dogs here because they're.

00:34:25 Leslie Nease: They're probably not going anywhere. They're my co-hosts on my podcast, too, so.

00:34:29 Jeromy Johnson: Oh, good.

00:34:30 Leslie Nease: Good. But yeah. And I thought about it. I'm like, oh man, I remember saying this from a pulpit once. Gross. I said, all roads do lead to God, but only one of them has a pleasant outcome.

00:34:40 Jeromy Johnson: Oh gosh.

00:34:42 Leslie Nease: It was like a mike.

00:34:43 Jeromy Johnson: Had never heard that before, which.

00:34:45 Leslie Nease: Is the craziest thing you've ever heard.

00:34:47 Jeromy Johnson: I felt like I've heard everything that.

00:34:49 Leslie Nease: No. And now.

00:34:49 Jeromy Johnson: You have. All roads lead to God, but only one ends up.

00:34:52 Leslie Nease: With a pleasant outcome. I remember being so proud of that.

00:34:56 Jeromy Johnson: That's gorgeous.

00:34:58 Leslie Nease: And I preached it with all my heart because I believed it was true. And and now I'm like, oh my gosh. And here's what I want you to think about, okay. So I believe we are all God's children. We are all connected. We have to be.

00:35:11 Jeromy Johnson: The separation is an illusion. It's just a complete separation between you and me, between all the other people, between us. It's an illusion. It doesn't exist.

00:35:19 Leslie Nease: It's crap. Yeah, it doesn't exist. But religion wants us to think it does. So that they can say we are the one true religion. And I didn't realize this. This is a whole nother part of it. Until I moved to Utah and I was around another religion, the LDS, the Mormons, they all live here. And, you know, they're like, you're lovely, but you don't have the full gospel. We have the full revelation. You know, ours is the true church. And it's like everybody thinks that. Yeah, but here's what I realized. I don't care what you call God. Everybody has something. There's something that you're looking at that is helping you feel safe in this world, that is making you feel like you're a part of something bigger than yourself. Even if you're an atheist. I don't care what you say. There's something that you know is bigger than you. Whatever you call that, it doesn't matter. Like if my kids wanted to call me Leslie instead of mom, I would be like, okay, all right. You can call me whatever you want. I'm still your mom. I know this, it doesn't matter. Yeah, I'm going to answer to whatever you want to call me. And another thing, if my kids said, mom, I don't believe you're my mom, I'm not going to send them to hell for that. I'm going to say, I don't really care what you believe because I'm confident I was there when I gave birth to you. I remember holding you for the first time. Like this has no consequence to me. Yeah. You don't have to believe in me. As a matter of fact, if I am in your mind, somebody that you're afraid of and you feel better not believing in me, I don't want you to believe. I just want you to be happy. Yeah, because I love you. Do you know what I mean?

00:36:43 Jeromy Johnson: Such heresy. Leslie. Jeez.

00:36:45 Leslie Nease: I know, but it feels right. For the first time in my life. And I know we're not supposed to base anything on feelings, but you know what? God gave us feelings.

00:36:52 Jeromy Johnson: No, but I think I even think that's a slice of maybe unknowing control is to like. Yeah, don't. trust. I agree, like you can't just solely trust feelings and intuition, but they're given for a reason at the same time. And when? For thirty years, just this notion of hell just never felt right in the core of my soul. There's something to that. Yeah, right. And now we're freed from that. And now what are your feelings? Tell you? What is your intuition? Tell you.

00:37:20 Leslie Nease: What does Jesus tell you? What does love tell you? Yes, it is a very easy yoke. Yeah. It is a very light burden when all you got to do is go. Mm. That doesn't look like Jesus. Okay. I'm not gonna believe it. I mean, boom. Yeah. That's it. Going back to what I was telling you, the template. Like, make a list of these things that scare you.

00:37:39 Jeromy Johnson: That's beautiful.

00:37:40 Leslie Nease: And then do the research that you have at your fingertips. Look at church history. What did they believe then? Where did hell come from? Well, you know, where did the word homosexual come from? Look into all of these things that are scaring you, or making you feel like something's not right and trust that. And when you do that, the fear melts away until the only thing that's left is absolute joy and love and connection. Everything I hoped Christianity would be I'm experiencing now as a heretic. And I'm not a heretic. But I want you to know we're in good company because remember, like, they all thought Jesus was crazy, too.

00:38:20 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. No, I mean, Jesus got killed because of his slutty grace. He was giving grace out way too freely to way too many people. And I think that that was a big part of what got him killed.

00:38:29 Leslie Nease: Yeah, I think it is. Absolutely.

00:38:32 Jeromy Johnson: I feel like I'm talking to Amir right now, Leslie, because I even wrote a podcast about just the freedom that I have found by not feeling like the world is on my shoulder, like there is ten things that I felt I'm free from and people you can't understand it until you start to live it. And once you start to live it, it starts to make sense. Yeah, we were talking about this a little bit earlier, where people will come to us and say, look, you need to stop Leslie talking. You need to stop sharing these things because you're leading people astray. And and we were talking about how we almost were bilingual. Now because we understand where they're coming from. We understand.

00:39:11 Leslie Nease: How much compassion I really do, so.

00:39:13 Jeromy Johnson: Much compassion. And there's nothing they can throw at us. Like, yeah, we've heard that we we used to be there.

00:39:19 Leslie Nease: I used to tell myself I was a heretic. You can't call me or think things about me that I haven't already thought about myself, but I've come through that because I've realized there is no fear in perfect love. And perfect love casts out fear, and fear has to do with punishment. And that is not the way of Christ. Period.

00:39:34 Jeromy Johnson: And so I imagine you're less fearful with your kids, you're less fearful with your marriage. You're less fearful with life.

00:39:40 Leslie Nease: Like, what's next? You know what I mean? Like what's everybody's like, well, what do you believe? How how come if you don't believe in this, then you just do whatever you want? I'm like, no. If the point of having a god is to keep you in line, you have bigger problems than you think. You know what I mean? Like, you just need to be a good freaking human. Be like Jesus. It's really that simple. If you don't want to do anything else but you. You feel like you're on this in this wilderness and you've lost your map. That's that's what it feels like when you first realize, oh, gosh, the Bible isn't what I thought it was. It's like I've lost my map. This is where you start to have faith. You know what I mean? You thought it was faith. It was certainty. But now I have faith because I don't have certainty anymore. And the faith tells me that I don't know what's next. And to be honest, I don't care. You know what I mean? Jesus told me how to live this life, and I am trusting that if God is love, whatever's next is good.

00:40:32 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:40:33 Leslie Nease: I'm a simple girl, Jeremy. Just a simple girl. I just I'm trying to make it as bite sized as I can because I know me. If it's too many rules, I'm going to get overwhelmed.

00:40:43 Jeromy Johnson: We used to be taught that doubt was the opposite of faith. I think certainty and control is the opposite of faith. That doubt is actually the impetus of faith. Doubt is the doorway to faith. Can I ask you two questions?

00:40:57 Speaker 5: Of course. Yes.

00:40:58 Jeromy Johnson: This was in your book. You said that leaving church can feel like a kind of a death. Right. And I felt that. And you felt that? What helped you hold on? To hope that this in-between space, this place where both community and certainty were gone. Because when you kind of go through this deconstruction phase, you do lose your community and you start to lose certainty. What what helped you through that? What helped you hold on to hope as you're going through that? Because that can be scary.

00:41:27 Speaker 5: Oh it's.

00:41:27 Leslie Nease: Terrifying. I think, you know, I found a coach to work with, which was really, really helpful. Um, which is why I decided to study and become a coach myself because I was like, dang, I don't know how people do this without somebody to help them. Like, she didn't tell me what to do. She just made space for me to be curious and didn't judge me for it and told me, well, what do you think? And I was like, wait, me? You want to know what I think? Nobody ever wants to know what I think she taught me to trust my intuition. And so I love that. I think you got to have community in some way now. It's very difficult because if you're in an area where, you know, religion is big, like right now, I'm in an area where Mormonism is really big, but I came from the Bible Belt, so if I would have tried to deconstruct there, but there are so many people online, and it's actually why I'm starting a starting in January. It's just a four week, like ninety minute group coaching. Um, and I'm calling it honoring the wilderness because I think sometimes we look at the wilderness as punishment, but really it's an invitation. It's an invitation to do what Jesus did when he was out in the wilderness to to really solidify what is it that I believe and what do I know about myself? So it's just a group coaching thing, a small group of people together, just asking these tough questions and trying to get through it. But I also I started to talk to my sister. Um, I didn't really talk to many people though, because I was so afraid that I was wrong And I didn't want to lead people astray. Do you want to know the main reason I left church? Aside from Donald Trump? Yes. The main reason I left was because I didn't want to lead people down a dark road. I was trying to protect them from myself because I knew I was questioning a lot, and I thought something was wrong with me, and I had to make peace with the fact that this is just growth. Leslie. This isn't bad just because it doesn't look like what they're doing. It's still very, very good because I am growing in love. I am more like Christ now, and I'm so sad when people in my past don't want to have a relationship with me because they look at me as some kind of heretic because I'm like, dude, you are missing out on the best version of Leslie. Like, I am so confident.

00:43:31 Jeromy Johnson: So.

00:43:31 Leslie Nease: True. I'm so happy. I have so much love to give to anybody. I don't give a crap what you believe or even if you do, I don't care. You know what I mean? Like, I want to learn from you and grow with you. I don't, I don't have anything. I don't want you to follow me. I'm going to say what I'm saying. If I connect with you, great. If I don't move along. You know what I mean? Like it's so bizarre. I mean, in that middle space, I think I really learned about what faith is because I learned to let go of the certainty. It was a very long process, though, Jeremy, like.

00:44:03 Jeromy Johnson: It is.

00:44:04 Leslie Nease: Saying it in one sentence, almost feels like I'm not doing it justice.

00:44:07 Jeromy Johnson: But no, no you are. And it's true because mine was about fifteen twenty years ago and there weren't these resources that are available now. Like, I've never heard of a non-religious spiritual coach or a deconstruction coach like that wasn't available. We were all just kind of flailing out in the wilderness by ourselves without no Boy Scout leader. Although that might be weird, but without a guide, without any coach out there like helping us. And so, I mean, and honestly, I want to put this out there, but like any, any help that I can give to this group coaching idea, like, I would love to be a part of that too, because that's like that's a huge part of my heart. In fact, I was just talking to my friend Jonathan Brink and we're like, how do we get people in the same room to just talk about this grace and this love and this deconstruction stuff?

00:44:53 Leslie Nease: You're not alone. I know there are so many of us, and we're all in different places, and you don't have to go to the same place I'm at, and I don't need to go to the same place. And, like, that's the beauty of deconstruction. I know it's what I think. It's what the church hates the most about it is that we don't all land in the exact same space. They're like, you aren't conforming at all, even though.

00:45:13 Jeromy Johnson: I.

00:45:13 Leslie Nease: Know the Bible says don't conform. I don't know. Anyway, um, yeah, they don't like that we're not all the same. But I think that that you're missing the point. If you think that conformity is belonging because it's not belonging is when you can absolutely believe something so different and still fit in a group that is going to want to hear what you have to say and not be like you. That's not true. No, listen, if that's what makes you feel safe, that's beautiful. How does that make you feel when you feel that way? What does that give you when you feel that way? You know, instead of it doesn't line up with John three sixteen or whatever. You know, you just start to realize how beautiful the world is because of the diversity of beliefs. And it's not just skin color and culture and all. It's also, you know, you can be in a in a group of people, and every single person could believe differently. You can learn something from every one of those people if you're not afraid.

00:46:06 Jeromy Johnson: Yep. And that's the beauty is your life just opens up like I cannot see this.

00:46:11 Leslie Nease: Scare me.

00:46:12 Jeromy Johnson: I know because yeah, I know, and it's just hard. And so that's why we're here. We're here sharing this, and we're here talking. And, like, I don't know, you're in Utah right now. I'm in California. But even, like, I just feel this, like spiritual connection of just like two people that have gone through very similar things that are just talking and having a conversation.

00:46:34 Leslie Nease: Been through the wilderness. And it's funny. People are like, why do you keep going back in it? I'm like to to show people that there's light. You can find your way out too.

00:46:42 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. And it's part of who we are. It's part of our identity. And I had to go kind of go full circle with that, because there was a while I was like, no, I don't I don't want anything to do with that. But then I realized, no, that is that is a huge part of who I am.

00:46:55 Leslie Nease: It is.

00:46:56 Jeromy Johnson: So two things is if you could speak to the version of yourself who was still trying to earn God's love, which I think would be Sister Christian, right? Because that was like your nickname on survivor and you got back. People would call you that. Oh, yeah. Too. Right. So it's kind of been this little thing that stuck. What would you tell her now? What would you tell Leslie back then?

00:47:16 Leslie Nease: I don't know if I could say anything to her because she wouldn't have listened. She had to go through this. I'm telling you, I was so sure that I was right. Yeah. And I wouldn't have listened. And I'll tell you, once I started going through deconstruction, you know, you go through grief, guys, it's gonna happen. You're going to go through grief. There's this. This little phase of grief called anger. I went through that. I was mad not only at the people that taught me the things that they taught me, that made me feel less than loved or unworthy or disgusting to God. I was mad at them, but I was also mad at myself. I was mad at Sister Christian because I buried her, and I feel like I stomped on her grave like I was pissed. I was like, how could you do? Why are you so gullible? You know what I mean? Like you idiot. And now, after years of a lot of work, a lot of therapy, a lot of time spent meditating and even just hiking or doing something to get my mind off of just getting offline. I guess you could say. Now, when I visit her grave, I leave her flowers, and I try to think of the things that she taught me. She taught me how to be really excited about something. She taught me how to love with my whole heart. Everything I did was from a heart of love. It may have been misguided, but it was always with the right heart. You know, I was just trying to save people from hell, and I thought I knew the answer. Yeah. Instead of looking at her that way now, I try to look at her as, okay, what can I bring with me that Sister Christian taught me into this new phase of my life, and I liken it to kind of like being born again. Again. I was born again. Again. But, you know, like.

00:48:52 Jeromy Johnson: Maybe the first time.

00:48:54 Leslie Nease: Yeah. I mean, I really think it is, honestly. But I feel like the the church was like a womb, you know, it was safe. It was warm. I felt completely content there. And like, this was all that mattered was my womb. Then the questions after survivor started and it was like a little contraction, little contraction, a little more, a little more. And then they get closer and closer together until finally, you know, I went through a transition phase, and I was born into this new reality. And I looked around and I was like, Holy crap, there's colors in this world. There's beauty and light. I was so afraid of this world. I was so afraid of it, because I was told that it was evil and everybody was in darkness and deceived, and nobody could be happy unless they did this. And all of a sudden I was feeling happiness that I'd never felt before in a womb. Everything is just so predictable. You have only amniotic fluid keeping you alive. You don't have any color. It's all dark. You know what I mean? And then when you're born and you're like, oh my gosh, this food is so freaking amazing. I can drink alcohol. I can do what? Yeah, you know what I mean? Like the permission. I have permissive faith now, and that doesn't mean I go out and do all these horrible things.

00:50:03 Jeromy Johnson: No, and that's what people don't get.

00:50:05 Leslie Nease: Give myself such a freaking hard time when I do things that feel indulgent. Do you know what I mean?

00:50:11 Jeromy Johnson: Like. Yeah, totally.

00:50:12 Leslie Nease: Okay. Like you're fine. Just trust. It's all about faith.

00:50:16 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:50:17 Leslie Nease: So I don't know if I answered your question.

00:50:18 Jeromy Johnson: No, you totally did. It was beautiful. And you've gone, like, full circle to be able to give your old self grace now. Like, that's how much freedom you feel is you now have the freedom to extend that grace to your old self. Yeah. And that's beautiful. It's almost like that caterpillar that goes into a chrysalis. And now we can fly. And I love her. It seems like such a such a simple picture, but that's almost the feeling of it is like that wilderness time was that chrysalis. You're just you're reforming, you're rethinking.

00:50:48 Leslie Nease: And it's so freaking hard.

00:50:49 Jeromy Johnson: And also it just breaks open and you're like, this is what this moth was meant to be, or this caterpillar was meant to be. Mhm.

00:50:57 Leslie Nease: Yeah. It's pretty awesome.

00:50:59 Jeromy Johnson: I want to respect your time. I know that you, uh, you have dinner here coming up. Parting words. What would you like to leave us with?

00:51:06 Leslie Nease: Well I'm not sure. Like, who is listening? I would assume these are people who are deconstructing, and I just want to. I just want you to know you're not alone. There's so many people that care and want to be there for you. Of course I'm a coach. I'm not going to sit here and be like, hey, you need to make me your coach. But if you felt anything resonate and you think you know what, maybe a conversation might be kind of good. I do offer a free thirty minute consultations. You don't have to do anything except just meet with me. And if you feel like that's a connection, then, you know, then we set up something. I just want to encourage you to find your people, whatever that looks like.

00:51:40 Jeromy Johnson: Because, yeah.

00:51:41 Leslie Nease: We're just not meant to do this alone. And it feels like we are initially. I think when you're leaving because you're so afraid are follow love, follow Jesus. You are not a heretic in the way that the church wants you to think. Just because somebody's.

00:51:57 Jeromy Johnson: Like, you're going to be going to hell because.

00:51:58 Leslie Nease: Somebody tells you that doesn't make it so.

00:52:01 Jeromy Johnson: Correct.

00:52:01 Leslie Nease: Your heart knows, your heart knows better, or you wouldn't be asking these questions and people will misunderstand you. People will judge you. People will say things about you. You don't have to receive it. God loves you right where you are. I guess that's what I want to leave with. And if you want to do the group coaching, check it out at Lesley. Nice coaching.

00:52:19 Jeromy Johnson: Com that's awesome. And just connect with someone. Online groups right now are really starting to take off. As far as people who just have that sense of finding a new place, finding a new space. And I think ultimately that's going to translate into person to person kind of connection. Connections.

00:52:36 Leslie Nease: It's so hard.

00:52:37 Jeromy Johnson: I'm getting the sense that there's more and more and more that are feeling the freedom and the permission to either go into the chrysalis or come out of the chrysalis to either stop crawling on the ground thinking like, this is what you were meant to be, to finally start asking those questions and to wrestle with the faith and to find a faith of your own, like to give yourself permission to build your own faith. And that's going to look different than mine as Jeremy. That's going to look different than Leslie's. Your faith is going to look like yours. And that's okay. Like, that's the beauty of the body of Christ. We're not all supposed to conform and look the same.

00:53:13 Leslie Nease: No, that's not belonging. It's conditional. And you realize that. And I think that's. My heart hurts for you if you're leaving a church community. Because I know that you thought they loved you unconditionally, and now you're realizing that it was very conditional. But you can find new. You can find more. Yeah. Just trust. Trust your instincts. Trust your intuition. Find people and be free, for goodness sakes. You've been. You've been bound up way too long. It's time to be free. Those contractions that you're feeling. I know you're scared of where they're taking you. But I promise you, once you're born and you're out, you're going to be like, I am so glad I went through that, because I now know what it means when I think it was Paul. Was it Paul or was it Peter? One of them said, it is for freedom that Christ has set you free. Yeah, and now I get it. I didn't get it before.

00:54:03 Jeromy Johnson: All of scripture through this lens looks so differently. Yeah. And we can probably go on a whole nother.

00:54:09 Leslie Nease: I know I.

00:54:10 Jeromy Johnson: Know our about that and what it looks like to have a different God lens put on and everything else like that. But okay, so honestly so I have a little bit of ADHD. So as you're talking about birthing and coming out, like I just picture that, uh, Jim Carrey scene of him being pushed out of the Rhino, so.

00:54:27 Speaker 6: Okay. Well, yeah.

00:54:28 Leslie Nease: Okay. No.

00:54:29 Jeromy Johnson: So, uh, it feels a lot like that. People like you're just.

00:54:32 Leslie Nease: Yeah.

00:54:33 Jeromy Johnson: If you don't know what that is, YouTube it.

00:54:35 Speaker 6: Go check it out.

00:54:36 Jeromy Johnson: It's great.

00:54:37 Speaker 6: It's perfect.

00:54:38 Leslie Nease: Yeah. Maybe you should like, you know, slip that in as a promo. No. I'm kidding.

00:54:41 Speaker 6: Don't do.

00:54:42 Jeromy Johnson: There'll be a link in the show notes.

00:54:46 Leslie Nease: Well, and if you want to hear more stories of people who are going through exactly what we just talked about. Deconstruction. Um, I do a podcast called Honoring the Journey. I'm I just dropped. Well, tomorrow, um, dropping episode ninety one.

00:54:59 Speaker 6: That's awesome.

00:54:59 Leslie Nease: So lots of people, like, I'm telling you, crap ton of people out there who are going through this exact same thing and you will hear them very, very loudly and beautifully on honoring the journey.

00:55:10 Speaker 6: That's awesome.

00:55:10 Jeromy Johnson: So that's awesome. Leslie, thank you so much for sharing your heart, your journey, your voice, and your spirit. I can just sense the the kindness and love that that indwells you and, um, thank you. It's beautiful. So thank you for taking the time and joining us. We appreciate it.

00:55:26 Leslie Nease: Thank you for being the aroma of Christ today because that was pretty freaking fun, I loved it.

00:55:33 Jeromy Johnson: If you're listening today with a lump in your throat because you feel like you're losing everything your church, your certainty, your belonging, Leslie has been there too. She knows the heartbreak of realizing the love you thought was unconditional wasn't. She knows the fear that comes when you start asking those forbidden questions. She knows the wilderness, but she also knows that there is life on the other side. People who will meet you with kindness, coaches and companions who will make space for your questions. And a God who was never, never threatened by your doubt. So if your intuition is waking up, trust it. If fear is losing its grip, let it fall away. And if you feel alone, know this there are more of us out here than you think. Remember to walk in grace if you can. Share that grace.