00:00:00 Jeromy Johnson: Sometimes I wonder, did I fail as a youth pastor? That's not a rhetorical question. It's a real one. And it's one that I've carried quietly for years. What happens when someone you once taught, guided, and prayed over grows up and walks away from the faith tradition that you represented and taught? Is that a failure? Is it growth? Is it something more complicated than either? Today's conversation is deeply personal for me. I'm sitting down with Autumn Lindsey, someone I knew when she was in middle school, back when I was her youth pastor. She's now an adult with kids of her own, who has deconstructed evangelical Christianity and no longer identifies with church at all. We talk about growing up evangelical, about fear and certainty, about the quiet pressure to belong and about what it means to leave without losing yourself. So did I fail? I'll let you decide as you listen. I'm your host, Jeremy Johnson, and you're listening to slutty Grace. All right. I have the privilege of speaking with Autumn Lindsey today. She is a friend from the past and partially the current. We still stay in touch every now and then. But Autumn and I, we were in a youth group together where she was a student and I was the youth pastor. And now we are here talking and reconnecting about our deconstruction journey that we both went on in separate ways, but somewhat ended up in the same place. So Autumn, I've been looking forward to this. Thanks for hopping on.

00:01:36 Autumn Lindsey: Yeah. Thank you.

00:01:38 Jeromy Johnson: So yeah, we were youth pastor and student coming full circle now.

00:01:41 Autumn Lindsey: So different. Well, and then like, Jennifer was my babysitter. And like, there's just so much life that has so excited. I mean, that's back to, like, the Los Gatos days.

00:01:52 Jeromy Johnson: That's right. I forgot that she.

00:01:54 Autumn Lindsey: She was my favorite.

00:01:55 Jeromy Johnson: Baby when you were.

00:01:55 Autumn Lindsey: Like, super.

00:01:56 Jeromy Johnson: Tiny. Yeah. That's right, because you guys were in Los Gatos, she said. Like, she literally grew up there. I imagine you did, too, because that was the thing.

00:02:06 Autumn Lindsey: Yes, I remember being there, not church hours running through the halls. I can still remember, like a visual map of, like where the mountains are, where the little terrariums were like. It's such a weird time. Like when your parents are involved in church and like, you are there at odd hours.

00:02:23 Jeromy Johnson: For those of you who don't know, Los Gatos Christian, that was the megachurch that kind of began mega churches. It was in San Jose. It was back in the eighties and it was one of the biggest churches around. And then Adam and I met at kind of a smaller church. I'm gonna say it was a Los Gatos church plant, though it wasn't, but the same exact people that were at Los Gatos repurposed themselves at Blossom Valley Bible Church. And that's kind of where we met at middle school. I think I had you all three years.

00:02:50 Autumn Lindsey: I think so, yeah, because I think you left.

00:02:52 Jeromy Johnson: I think it was about two thousand and one, two thousand and two ish, somewhere around.

00:02:56 Autumn Lindsey: I was already like a sophomore in high school at that point.

00:02:59 Jeromy Johnson: I mean, we did the whole, like thing. We did the whole Mexico missions thing where we went down to Mexico to save Mexicans, I guess. I mean, they were very self-reliant. I mean, we were just kind of go down there and help them. It was good for us. And it was good, I think, to experience a third world country when you're that age is super impactful and powerful.

00:03:16 Autumn Lindsey: Well, I never went on the Mexico trips, but I did.

00:03:19 Jeromy Johnson: Okay.

00:03:20 Autumn Lindsey: On it. High school. You did some. I forgot what it was called now, but it was in like inner city LA, like going to those areas and passing out flyers.

00:03:30 Jeromy Johnson: I think it was city team.

00:03:32 Autumn Lindsey: Yeah, yeah, I did that, I think once or twice, but I never went on. Much of the missions trips.

00:03:37 Jeromy Johnson: Just seem like.

00:03:40 Autumn Lindsey: People like, which I was born up there, by the way.

00:03:42 Jeromy Johnson: No, seriously. Like you were literally born at Hume Lake.

00:03:46 Autumn Lindsey: My parents were full time staff. And then, of course, I was born in a hospital down the hill. But I lived up there the first nine months of my life, and then my aunt and uncle lived up there long term, full time staff, so I would be up there for summers. I went to day camp up there. I went to wagon train. I never went to Meadows wagon train.

00:04:04 Autumn Lindsey: I never went in the.

00:04:05 Autumn Lindsey: Middle school one though.

00:04:06 Autumn Lindsey: Okay, I.

00:04:07 Autumn Lindsey: Think I went to one winter camp in like seventh grade and I got food poisoning. That was really fun.

00:04:12 Autumn Lindsey: And then I.

00:04:14 Autumn Lindsey: Went to the high school camp, Ponderosa. That's where I met Peter. He met at summer camp.

00:04:19 Jeromy Johnson: Okay.

00:04:19 Autumn Lindsey: And then we came back as camp counselors with the high school group, and we did youth stuff. And then we got engaged up there. We did some of the college camp stuff, and then we actually lived up there for a year, as he did video on full time staff. So we've had a quite the quite the Hume experience there. But again, I grew up with the backrooms version seeing all the back end. My uncle did video up there getting to to see the staff dining halls like a kid, and all these different viewpoints of things lurking in the background.

00:04:50 Jeromy Johnson: So let's back up. Let's go to your story. A young girl growing up conservative. What was that like for you?

00:04:58 Autumn Lindsey: I think when I was really young, it's just all I knew. Like I describe it as, I was literally bred into it.

00:05:05 Jeromy Johnson: I mean, you were born at Hume Lake, literally. Yeah.

00:05:10 Autumn Lindsey: Yeah.

00:05:11 Autumn Lindsey: So I was literally born into it. Um, I didn't know any. Anything else? You know, you go to church on Sunday, you go to youth group. You you kind of don't realize the impact it had in your life until you kind of start stepping out of it and kind of start getting a hold back view. There was a lot of things that never quite sat right. Like my anxiety, I, I struggled a lot with that as an adult now not realizing where it stemmed from, and a lot of it was from childhood. I remember when I was four at Los Gatos in Sunday School being told, I need to invite Jesus into my heart. And I'm a I'm a literal thinker. I'm learning. I have some neurodivergence I was picturing. I have a heart with a door and a little man needs to come inside. And so as a kid, I remember so vividly that lesson in Sunday School and it terrifying me like, oh my gosh, I need to do that. I want to go to hell. I don't want to be separated from my family. And I'm four years old. And so I look back at that and I'm like, that's where it began. My anxiety, my fears, all of it based around a religion that's supposed to give you no fear. It's supposed to take away your fear. It's supposed to give you hope. It's supposed to give you promise, and you're supposed to cast your cares upon Jesus and he takes it away for you. But when that doesn't happen, after years and years and years, you kind of start going, oh, okay, something's not fitting here. Uh, you know, the prayer, like, now I lay me down to sleep. That was my ritual as a child. If I didn't say that at night, I was afraid I would like die and not wake up in the morning like.

00:06:43 Jeromy Johnson: And then like even that second line I pray the Lord my soul to keep is there's a little bit of fear element in that, right?

00:06:50 Autumn Lindsey: Like this deity is in charge of whether I wake up or not. And that terrifies me as a child, you know? And so it's kind of only been more recently in my life, I've kind of realized, like these rituals, these I don't want to say an OCD, but almost that level necessity. And I didn't start realizing this until I became a parent and had my own children at those ages, and seeing them as four years old and having these wild stories and fun imaginations.

00:07:15 Jeromy Johnson: At that young age. Looking back now that the trauma of being separated from your family, or was it the trauma of this burning eternal damnation?

00:07:24 Autumn Lindsey: Yeah, I'm not sure how I quite internalized it, but just the scary idea. What if I didn't do this right? What if I didn't say the prayer right? Like every summer camp, I would do an altar call in my head. Yes. Just in case. Yeah, but I don't want anyone to know I'm doing that because I don't want it to look like I'm not Christian. Oh, I won't go up to the altar because I already did this when I was four. Yeah, I know I did. But just in case, I'm gonna do it again. Or, like, just in case I'm gonna, like, think this in my head or, like, what? Am I not Christian enough? What if I'm not believing enough? And so a lot of that, I think, kind of builds a lot of pressure until you grow up and you start learning more about the world around you, the world gets bigger. This little thing you grew up that was your whole life gets smaller and you realize that's that's not everything.

00:08:09 Jeromy Johnson: You know, they say like once saved, always saved. But then there's like this little catch phrase like, if you, um, veer off too far, like, I don't know, let's say you just become gay all of a sudden, or you, like, start living a lifestyle of.

00:08:20 Autumn Lindsey: Literally, you aren't actually meaning it. You weren't actually.

00:08:23 Jeromy Johnson: Clearly all those times you asked that little man into the door of your heart. Yeah. Clearly it wasn't genuine. Clearly your heart was was tainted because you can't lose your salvation. So the fact that you've gone off this slippery slope in this road of destruction.

00:08:37 Autumn Lindsey: Then clearly you weren't.

00:08:38 Jeromy Johnson: Clearly you were never a Christian. Yeah. So that's like the caveat, which then I feel like almost gives more fear, which is what causes you to just rededicate and rededicate and rededicate, like you're never quite sure.

00:08:50 Autumn Lindsey: Yeah. And that's the uncertainty, right? And actually, you know, fast forwarding, I never realized I was deconstructing. I went on that path before I knew what that term was. Um, and then I started finding these different. I'm like, oh, there's a term for this. Like, this is something people do. It's when I started getting comfortable with the uncertainty that I actually found so much peace in freedom. I don't need the answers. I don't need to know.

00:09:14 Jeromy Johnson: What age around was. This was this early college, high school that you started really having these questions, wrestling about the uncertainty.

00:09:21 Autumn Lindsey: So let's say I got married in two thousand and seven. We were youth staff for quite a while after that, and I had my first child in two thousand and nine, so it was kind of around, I think it was when I was pregnant with my first kid, we actually pulled away from the church structure wise, and we started a home church with some friends, and that was like the first step outside of the normal typical structure. And that was the big time of like Rob Bell and Donald Miller, kind of all those different voices coming out. That was the first time I realized Jesus was Jewish, like this kind of this kind of.

00:09:56 Jeromy Johnson: Well, I, I feel like I failed you as a youth pastor if you didn't even know that Jesus was Jewish. Like, I'll take that one. That one's on me. I apologize for that.

00:10:05 Speaker 5: Like, I knew, you know, he's a Jewish rabbi, but then you don't.

00:10:08 Autumn Lindsey: Understand that context. Yeah. Like all of this that Jesus is teaching is going to be through this lens of Judaism, where he comes from. He didn't have Christianity. He didn't have Bible, church and pastors and all these things. It was off of that structure. And so it wasn't until I was a youth high school stuff, but I was like, okay, I know this, but I didn't know this. You know, what did that mean? What is that?

00:10:34 Jeromy Johnson: You didn't know, like the ramifications of the interpretation of things. And. Yeah, because we're looking at it through this evangelical lens, which obviously did not exist back then. And so you started realizing.

00:10:45 Autumn Lindsey: No, the trick to the Bible were not structured like we have now.

00:10:48 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, exactly.

00:10:49 Autumn Lindsey: Come into your worship song. You have your tithing, your communion. Yeah, yeah.

00:10:54 Jeromy Johnson: He had his own religious structure that he really fought up against. But so that was like you started to realize, oh, there's there was a different culture. There's a different context of everything here.

00:11:03 Autumn Lindsey: Yes. And understanding that context, I'm a more introspective person. I'm a more of an introverted person. And I think that's why writing started calling to me, which I also wasn't until later that I was like, I think I want to write a book. So I did, and I think it was getting to that where I always tended to look at the reasoning. I wanted to know why. I liked understanding why. Like, I remember one of my biggest arguments with my parents for Sundays was, why can't I wear pajama pants to church? Everyone was doing it. Why can't I do that?

00:11:34 Jeromy Johnson: Fair question.

00:11:35 Autumn Lindsey: Why can't I do this? Well, it looks bad. Why can't I be in a car with a boy? Like, oh, it looks bad. And this optics and what things look like. And I remember being like. But why? Why does that matter? There's deeper reasoning for it, and I needed that. I needed that deeper reasoning.

00:11:49 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. And they weren't really able to give that to you. They just said, no, just do this because.

00:11:54 Autumn Lindsey: Right. And that's things again, I didn't realize until becoming a parent and then having your own kids go like, well, I want to do this, but why can't I do this? And then it's like, well, why can't you? And sometimes I'm like, you know what? There's no reason why you can't do this. Like, aw, yeah, here's the reason. And I hope you understand why I'm making this decision. And usually when I explain something, they're like, oh, okay, that makes sense. Why can't I have social media? Well, here's the reasons. I think I would like you to be in agreement with this. Do you think that's a good, reasonable idea. And usually they're like, yeah, actually that makes sense. Yeah, I needed that as a kid. I was told too many times, you can't do that. You can't go to the mall with your friends. Okay. But why?

00:12:33 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. My daughter Ashlyn needs that as well. Like, she would just ask why. And I remember at one point I'm like, just do it. You don't need to know why the house is burning. We need to get out. You know, it wasn't. But it's like sometimes in life you just have to do it. But for me, it was all the little things. So she really taught me a lot about thinking and giving the reasons for that. Was there any particular, um, question or thought as you were going through that deconstruction? Because because there is a crumbling effect, right. You start asking one question and that's why they say slippery slope, but the slippery slope actually leads back into God's loving arms, which is what they don't tell you. But was there any like, one particular question or thought that was the big one that started it?

00:13:13 Autumn Lindsey: Most of it was me working on youth stuff, which you know what it's like to be part of youth stuff. When Peter and I were on the youth staff for the high school group, They were going through a huge church upheaval. Pastor's daughter got pregnant. Huge church split happens. The youth pastor left. Uh, there was a lot of upheaval, and I was like, well, no, we need to be here for these kids. They need stability. They need people that are still there for them. Um, and so we stayed on. I did go to Bible college for a semester, but I'm not like a I'm like a pastor level person. But working with these high schoolers, I'm like, well, they they need some kind of stability within this church and no one's offering that for them. So we stayed on to be there. Peter and I would make up lessons. We would do do things, and there was other other people there too. But at that point there was no youth stuff. The head pastor of the church at the time, we had asked, we'd really like to be involved in choosing the next youth pastor because, you know, we've been working with kids, we're there with them. And it was promises that we could be. And then, lo and behold, we were not part of this decision. And so it was starting to see, like these promises made, things not fulfilled. They actually ended up hiring a con man that stole ten thousand dollars from the church suite. And after repeatedly saying this person is not good, this person does not have Jesus. This person is not healthy for these kids. Ignored, ignored. So again, the next time around, we were kind of brought in on who would be the next pastor, and they actually became incredible friends of ours. It was great working under them, and that's where we started kind of getting introduced to this concept of kind of what Rob Bell was talking about at the time, kind of these contexts, these different levels of going deeper and understanding the the concepts and the building blocks of why we have our faith, deeper questions than just the Q&A cafes we had when I was in high school, like, how far is too far? And can I date a mormon? And do Catholics go to heaven? And like, yeah, all these.

00:15:09 Jeromy Johnson: Like, was this when Rob Bell was releasing those little video shorts? Yes yes, yes. So powerful.

00:15:14 Autumn Lindsey: So we would use that. We would, we would show those in the youth group the Youth pastor. They ended up having this really tragic, just tragic loss of a child. And we saw how the church reacted to them within this time. And it was during this time that the curtain was really pulled back.

00:15:33 Jeromy Johnson: How did the.

00:15:33 Autumn Lindsey: Church how the church.

00:15:34 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. How did they react?

00:15:36 Autumn Lindsey: A lot of like, well, God can't give you more than you can handle. And, uh, just kind of this, this voyeuristic wanting to know what happened and wanting to be there and wanting to get pictures of this child and wanting it was really sickening. And seeing this community almost be like, because their reaction was not this, okay, this tragic thing happened, but I'm going to, you know, suck it up and, you know, just pretend it never happened or whatever. These I don't know what they were expecting from this poor family that now has been tragically destroyed. Mm. Um, it was kind of seeing this really nastiness come out, and I don't think it was of the intention of these people. I don't think anyone intended.

00:16:20 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. No.

00:16:21 Autumn Lindsey: Were their actions to come across that way. But I've learned as I've grown up, I'm a very empathetic person, and I feel very deeply. And all of it felt so wrong, like this is not okay. And so they ended up leaving the church. And again, we stayed on a little bit longer and then was kind of at a point where we were like, you know what? I don't think this church is for us. I think we need to move on. It's not our job to save this church. They have no interest in building up their youth program. What are we doing here?

00:16:48 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:16:48 Autumn Lindsey: You know, we're newly married. We have. I was doing hair in a salon. Like, we. We've got our legs that we're building. How much of it do we dedicate to this cause?

00:16:57 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:16:58 Autumn Lindsey: And so we that's when we left, and we, um, started a house church with some friends who. They still run that house church today, and they're, they're thriving and they're doing really good. And it was from there that we were like, okay, we're kind of done with the typical church structure. I don't think that's meant for us. Then we got pregnant with our second child, like really quickly. I had a seven month old at home and we were like, crap, we need insurance. And this is before Obamacare, so not everything had maternity with it. And so at this point, I had quit my job. We had a baby. We were living with my grandparents, my grandma who had dementia, and my grandpa, who's blind and deaf, and we were living at their house to save money.

00:17:38 Jeromy Johnson: Oh, wow. And a kid and pregnant. Yeah. And, uh.

00:17:42 Autumn Lindsey: At this point, we rival. Now we need health insurance for having this other baby. Peter does the, um, video. He has a degree in film, and we had looked into Mount Hermon, had an opening, and he, like, potentially had an opening. And we were like, well, we're kind of done with this structure, but I don't know, maybe that's the path we should be on. Maybe we'll give it a try. I had a great experience at Cuba growing up and.

00:18:09 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:18:10 Autumn Lindsey: You know, maybe that would be a cool way. My parents lived there when I was a baby. You know, maybe it'll be cool. So we ended up taking the one at home because the offer maternity coverage. And so we went up there and again.

00:18:20 Jeromy Johnson: And and for those listening, just to give context, I don't mean to interrupt, just to give context of Hume Lake. It is like the largest Christian evangelical Christian camp in all of California. And they bring.

00:18:34 Autumn Lindsey: Well, now they're East Coast and Hawaii like they're they're huge now.

00:18:38 Jeromy Johnson: Okay. So they've they've really spread their wings. But I mean, you're talking six thousand kids a week. This was like the massive evangelical.

00:18:45 Autumn Lindsey: Is the place to be if you are in California. I remember growing up no other camp compared like it's Hume or nothing.

00:18:51 Jeromy Johnson: Yes, exactly.

00:18:53 Autumn Lindsey: Living up there. Um, I attribute it to being the most lonely and secluding year of my life, and I didn't expect that. I expected. Wow. This is a community of full time staff. You know, I grew up with my uncle living up there, having a great time. Parents had a great time. Like, just kind of these expectations. And I'm like, okay, this is probably what I can expect. Let's try this structure again and let's see, maybe this is the path God wants us to go on, and.

00:19:18 Jeromy Johnson: Maybe no to church, but still God and Jesus and him. Like we'll try that, right?

00:19:23 Autumn Lindsey: But at this time, I had a nine month old baby and I was pregnant with my second and living up. That was so that would have been twenty ten. And that was like a crazy winter. We got five feet of snow in a day. Like it was a new experience for me. Bay Area girl all of a sudden living full time where it's like I had those ice tracks for my shoes just so I could, like, not slip and fall. And but it was such a lonely year for living around so many people that claimed part of this Christian community. And it was wild just there. There was a couple people I did make friends with, so it's not like I was cast aside, but the first church service we went to with the staff was pray for my aunt that she comes to know God or pray for. It was kind of this like, wow, wow. Like this is not what they wanted to be a part of. So I stopped going. I did not have to go to church meetings, and I didn't have to participate for us to live there. So I was like, you know what? I'm going to do my own thing and be with my baby. And, uh.

00:20:26 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, but Peter did.

00:20:28 Autumn Lindsey: Yeah. Peter had to be a part of it. And like, he made some great connections and great, like, there are still great people there, but the structure really came apparent. Um, and one of the most turning points for us was he's filming these chapel decision nights. It was like Tuesday night. They would have one thing on Thursday night. It was always decision night, and he'd see guest after guest after guest giving this basically turn or burn mentality. Yeah, but in a softer way because it's evangelicalism. You know, if you wake up tomorrow and you weren't saved, like, where would you go? Um, yeah. And then there was a pastor that came up. He had this message of God being your father, The prodigal son. Turning to God with these loving arms. And he's there for you. And it didn't have that turn or burn urgency to it.

00:21:14 Jeromy Johnson: Okay.

00:21:14 Autumn Lindsey: I remember Peter talking about like, wow, this was just the most impactful message that he's heard in a long time of how this is produced.

00:21:22 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:21:22 Autumn Lindsey: And the person that was head of the high school program, he was mentioning that too. Like, wow, that was amazing. He's like, yeah, but he was missing a few key points of his gospel, and there wasn't as many kids that came up.

00:21:32 Jeromy Johnson: Interesting.

00:21:33 Autumn Lindsey: I was like, wow, this is farming souls. This is all we want to see is numbers. All we want to see is more kids come up front. All we want to do is scare them into compliance. Scare them into eternity. Yeah. And it kind of the business model became very apparent.

00:21:49 Jeromy Johnson: So then they can like.

00:21:50 Autumn Lindsey: I.

00:21:50 Jeromy Johnson: Was like they can share those numbers with donors saying, hey, this summer we had we impacted.

00:21:55 Autumn Lindsey: Their program going and we were like, wow.

00:21:58 Jeromy Johnson: And they also cared about the souls, but too. Yeah. Like there is a specific gospel message that has to have that that eternal separation?

00:22:05 Autumn Lindsey: Yes. But you you get this, this message of this loving father just wanting you in his arms, just wanting you to be part of this, to have a fulfilling life. And that's not enough. And we were like, yeah, I think it's time to leave. We we finished out the year. He felt like I committed to a year. We're going to do a year. And within that time we had our second child. And again, just this isolation. And I'm like, I, I'm an introvert. I don't need a lot of people around. But it was a lot for me. It was it was a lot. I did have a few people I connected with and a few friends, but the overall community just was not what we thought it would be. It was not as welcoming as we thought. Um, if you were on like an upper staff, if you were on like program staff, you were welcomed in with, with big arms. And if you were just kind of, you know, maintenance or video or.

00:22:53 Jeromy Johnson: And sometimes in that environment, like the lower levels, they just have a churn rate, right? Like people come and go. So it's almost like, look, we're not going to get to know you. You're going to be gone in a year. So why?

00:23:03 Autumn Lindsey: And this came out later. We were actually told that when, uh, they needed some people for video and Peter was asked like, hey, we've got an opening. We would love to have you back. Like you, we really miss you. And he was like, no, we're not coming back. And he kind of mentioned the the isolation I felt and how we didn't feel welcome. And he's like, well, that tends to happen up here with people if they don't make it through the first year and we're like, well, maybe they would make it through the first year if they felt if they felt welcomed and embraced.

00:23:28 Jeromy Johnson: And yeah, interesting. So yours is kind of a mixture of, um, experience and a little bit of theology. You've been burned a few times, you've been hurt. There's just been some painful parts.

00:23:39 Autumn Lindsey: Well, and it seems not lining up and things not matching for myself. Yeah. And that was the year Rob Bell's book, Love Wins came out. Um, and I remember being like, yes, this is how I feel about things. This is how I feel for my own self that my relationship with God is.

00:23:54 Jeromy Johnson: So Rob was giving you giving you voice to all those things that you were thinking and and questioning.

00:23:59 Autumn Lindsey: Yes. Yeah. Was that like, oh, this one I want to think I was like, no, this is what I already feel. So obviously I'm aware now there's a larger thought of how people feel like this that is different from the communities I grew up in. And hearing the negativity around that book living up there.

00:24:17 Jeromy Johnson: Oh yeah.

00:24:18 Autumn Lindsey: I think everyone's gonna come to where they are in life because of their own life and because of their own journey. It's not for me to be like, you need to think like me. That's not my job. That's I know that's kind of opposite of what evangelicalism is.

00:24:30 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:24:30 Autumn Lindsey: Like that I learned when I went to Bible school, um, I had a class where one of the assignments for the class was to find a random person and tell them about Jesus, and I was like, I'm not okay with that.

00:24:43 Jeromy Johnson: We had an entire semester class that was only about that. Like weekly, you had to go out and go to San Jose State and convert and share the gospel.

00:24:54 Autumn Lindsey: That I mean, gosh, we're backtracking now. But I remember being like, no. And actually my favorite class at that school was the psychology class that I took was actually the teacher was like, well, they're probably canceling this program because they don't like.

00:25:06 Jeromy Johnson: What I do.

00:25:07 Autumn Lindsey: And I remember being like, okay, but this is really interesting. This is my favorite one. Uh, and then.

00:25:12 Jeromy Johnson: This is my favorite one. So that's so telling. You're like, my favorite message at Hume Lake was the one that they didn't like. My favorite class was the one that they canceled. So yeah, you're like, I just don't feel like I'm gonna fit into this world very much as I continue to grow. So you're reading Rob Bell. You're tracking with it? Yeah. He's really saying some things that are connecting with you.

00:25:33 Autumn Lindsey: Yeah. And I mean, he did kind of go I call it the Oprah route. And at that point it kind of lost me. But that doesn't take away from what what you kind of felt at that point. Because like I said, people change, people grow, their paths don't have to stay the same. They don't have to be linear and they don't have to be mine.

00:25:49 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:25:49 Autumn Lindsey: And I think that was an important part for me to recognize because when like deconstructing sometimes at first it's difficult Because it is a lonely path, and I was really grateful that my husband was also willing to be on the same path, because that would have been really hard to be like, uh, you're thinking one way and then your partner's like, no, that's wrong. You must follow the path.

00:26:14 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, and it happens because you guys grow independently.

00:26:17 Autumn Lindsey: But he grew up methodist, and he got a bit of a different Christianity view. And I grew up where we told Methodist they were going to hell, so.

00:26:25 Speaker 6: Jeez. Uh, I know.

00:26:27 Jeromy Johnson: Even those within the Christian circle like, no, you're going to hell because you're not this.

00:26:31 Speaker 6: You're oh, you're Catholic.

00:26:32 Autumn Lindsey: Yeah, that doesn't count. And you're like, why?

00:26:34 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. So if he grew up methodist, he he definitely had a softer approach.

00:26:38 Speaker 6: And he wasn't.

00:26:39 Autumn Lindsey: He wasn't forced to like, go to church as a kid. It was like when we go to church. But that was kind of the thing you just. Oh, you, uh, good Republican family. We go to church and then, gosh, how that has changed, you know.

00:26:51 Jeromy Johnson: Where did you kind of end up landing? Would you call yourself spiritual but not religious or or something else, or I would.

00:26:58 Autumn Lindsey: I definitely consider myself a spiritual person in the sense that kind of anything is possible. I who am I to rule out anything? Like who am I to like? Yeah, this is it. I know the answer now. I'm the same as as Christianity. Here's the answer. Here's the capital T truth. I'm okay.

00:27:14 Speaker 6: Not.

00:27:15 Jeromy Johnson: And I.

00:27:15 Speaker 6: Know it.

00:27:15 Autumn Lindsey: Yeah, and I know it like, gosh, who am I to say that? Like, I don't need to know it and I don't need you to know it. I know, and I don't need you to, like, understand me exactly. And then be like, well, yeah, you're right. I'm going to follow you. Now. I kind of I'm I'm tired of that model. And breaking away from that has been really beneficial for me as a person. I think it's made me kinder, it's made me more empathetic, and it's made me more understanding of the world around me. And I'm grateful for that. I want to be that person, and I don't want to go back to the person I was growing up in that. But it also is what made me what I am now. So I don't regret that. Yeah, I'm definitely still spiritual. I don't like the idea of nothing. I feel like that's the same thing as saying I know what it is. It's saying, I know what it's not, and I'm not comfortable with.

00:27:58 Speaker 6: That.

00:28:00 Autumn Lindsey: Because there's just things you can't prove or disprove. So I like being somewhere in the middle here where I'm like, you know what? I'm comfortable thinking like this. People around me don't have to for me to to think this way. And that took a long time to get to being able to be okay with, like, people are not gonna understand this. Like, my family's not gonna understand this.

00:28:20 Jeromy Johnson: This being, like, the mystery or not coming to a place of certainty or.

00:28:24 Speaker 6: Yeah, or just.

00:28:24 Autumn Lindsey: You know, you stop going to church. And I think the immediate assumption is like.

00:28:29 Speaker 6: Oh, they're.

00:28:29 Autumn Lindsey: Atheist now or oh, they're, they're on the wrong path. They're oh, they're they're um, whatever.

00:28:34 Speaker 6: So true.

00:28:34 Autumn Lindsey: Like, I don't think it has to be black and white.

00:28:38 Speaker 6: I that doesn't fit.

00:28:40 Autumn Lindsey: For my internal feelings of things. Like, I can't live in the black and white. I gotta live in the very a little bit.

00:28:46 Jeromy Johnson: I think we were either told this explicitly or implicitly is like church equals God. Church equals relationship with God or it's it's it's just as important. And like if you don't go I felt like the impression was their life is is not as good as it can be. Their life is miserable. They're outside of community.

00:29:03 Autumn Lindsey: They have a God shaped hole in their life. They're missing something. They're they're not going to find true happiness. They're not going to find they're not going to. And you're like, that's pretty brazen to assume about people.

00:29:17 Jeromy Johnson: And I think it's a church shaped hole. Right. Because there's the God shaped hole that you get told about. The little man comes in and fills it. And then there's also that church shaped hole where like, if you don't go to this building each week, there's this hole in your heart that won't be filled, and you'll be empty and you'll be miserable. Has that been the case for you? I mean, you haven't gone to church in a while. No. So do you feel empty.

00:29:39 Autumn Lindsey: And.

00:29:39 Jeromy Johnson: Miserable and suffering?

00:29:41 Autumn Lindsey: I'm trying to think the last time I went to, like, a church service and gosh, it was like I couldn't even tell you when. I mean, we're talking when maybe my oldest was like a tiny baby because I kind of decided when we lived at home, I was like, I don't want to raise my kids in this. I want them to grow up as children. I want them to have this freedom. Like, in a sense, God given, and eat whatever is part of them to be able to grow and flourish and become who they're meant to be, not told who they're supposed to be. I have not regretted that one bit. My kids are these amazing little people with like, just incredible imaginations or even behavior behaviors like, oh, don't do that because God says that's bad. Like, no, don't do that. Don't hit your brother because you're hurting the relationship between you two. That's the reasoning I needed as a child. Don't do this. Because look at this disconnect that's causing between you and those around you, because that's what you see and that's what matters. I think it's been a little misplaced on this relationship with God, overarching relationship with others. When I kind of view it as we all have this spirit, this God within us, not like we're God, but just gods within all things. God breathed life into all things. And I think that's what connects us as humans. And I think that transcends your religion, your church, your, um, whatever it is you take part in or don't take part in, there's something that connects humanity. So for me, I call that God. It could be, you know, whatever someone would like to label that as. But that's what I came to know. God as is like, I think you're always going to see it a little bit through the Christian lens when you're raised in it. Yeah, but I couldn't cope with it being as small as evangelicalism makes it as black and white and as this or that. You're either Christian or you're not. And I'm like, I don't think that doesn't that doesn't work for me.

00:31:30 Jeromy Johnson: And it isn't. I don't think it works for a lot of people. You've probably experienced this where you meet a lot of people who aren't Christian, but God. They are the most kind, loving, generous, beautiful souls on the planet.

00:31:43 Autumn Lindsey: Right. But what are we taught in in youth group? Like not. I don't remember you teaching this. I remember this in high school. It was kind of like, oh, well, such and such actor can go in as many charitable things as they want, but they don't have Jesus, so it doesn't mean anything. Well, I don't know. That child that just got fed has food in their stomach now. I don't think they care where that food came from. They're fed. How is that not God? Also, if God works in all things, is in all things, why are we limiting it to a label under Christianity or not?

00:32:15 Jeromy Johnson: And even scripture says by your actions you will be judged.

00:32:17 Autumn Lindsey: Yeah. Uh, the sheep and the goats and.

00:32:20 Jeromy Johnson: You know, at the end of the day, would you rather have someone who said all the right things and thought all the right things, or someone who did all the right things?

00:32:28 Speaker 7: But then you have the contradiction of.

00:32:31 Autumn Lindsey: Well, faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead. I think that's what we get stuck on in a lot of religion. I don't like again, it's black and white when you say it that way, and I don't, I don't.

00:32:41 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, there he is.

00:32:42 Autumn Lindsey: I can't sit with it. I can't believe it that way for myself now.

00:32:46 Jeromy Johnson: No, I'm with you. I feel like it's a lot more generous and larger. Not only just God, but people's experience of God. And sometimes, you know, I look at Native Americans like they called God, quote unquote, the Great Spirit. It's like, well, was that just the different experience and name of the same thing that they just experienced it and named it differently?

00:33:07 Autumn Lindsey: Like, why do we get to take God and this is the only God. And and the way I've heard it described is there's always a little bit of truth in everything, something that connects a lot. So you have so many different religions. There's kind of an overarching similarity and a lot of parts of it. And so why can't that be God? But we only are going to understand and know it through the lens we learned about within or the culture that we grew up in or the place we live in. And I think part for me, I realized that when I would pull away from the church structure, even in like high school group, when I really I started questioning a lot of things then, and kind of like choosing my own path for life. And that created a lot of turmoil in my family. They did not like that. And I did some things that, you know, they were understandable to not like. But the whole time I never felt like I was like turning away from God or not. I kind of felt like this was something I needed to go through, something I needed to do, something I needed to experience. I consider myself like a collector of experiences sometimes like. And that's why I love reading books. And that's why I love novels and stories. Because you get to have these windows into experiences you maybe would never get to. Like, I can't go back in time and live a life as a Victorian person, but I can read a book about someone and what their life might have been like.

00:34:25 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:34:25 Autumn Lindsey: And so I think as a high schooler, I was like, what would it be like to switch schools? What would it be like to be the new kid on campus? What would it be like to do that? And I tried to kind of collect these experiences. And then as soon as I graduated high school, I moved to Oregon and I went to Bible school. That's what I went to Bible school because that was the only way I could get to Oregon, because my boyfriend lived in Oregon, and there's no way my parents would have been like, sure, go move up there with them.

00:34:49 Jeromy Johnson: But if I go to a Bible college, then I can go up there.

00:34:52 Autumn Lindsey: Am I going to Bible college? Then we're okay.

00:34:54 Jeromy Johnson: Even if it was just for you, just say a month or a semester.

00:34:57 Autumn Lindsey: I went for a semester and then this other girl in my dorm and I, we were like, um, I mean.

00:35:03 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, it's it's an experience.

00:35:04 Autumn Lindsey: Like it was an experience. You know, I got in trouble because when I sat down, my skirt went like that much above my knee, and I was like, are you kidding me? Like, okay, I can't um.

00:35:16 Jeromy Johnson: You mentioned that there's been some reaction. What's kind of been some of the cost of this new space that you're in? What's been the cost of your deconstruction?

00:35:25 Autumn Lindsey: I would say, I mean, honestly, I don't have a connection with my family in the same way. Like my my side of the family took me a long time to have to be okay with that. My parents and I like I feel like we're all still very cordial, like they come over and it's it's not like a problem. But I know there's this vast, this unbridgeable gap between. So I would say it's the relationships that you had from your past when you become a different person that don't always grow with you.

00:35:53 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:35:53 Autumn Lindsey: And sometimes that's leaving that behind and not that I'm like, no, I won't talk to you. You don't talk things like that. It's just you become a different person. And sometimes people have a hard time accepting that.

00:36:04 Jeromy Johnson: Especially when their their belief in theology is black and white. Right? Christian? non-Christian.

00:36:09 Autumn Lindsey: It's it's so fear based.

00:36:11 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:36:12 Autumn Lindsey: You know, like, why would they care if I leave the church? Because now they're going to have to question if they're going to see me in heaven. Yeah. And.

00:36:20 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:36:20 Autumn Lindsey: To sacrifice the relationship you can have now with that person because of this potential eternal punishment or reward is kind of wild to me.

00:36:33 Jeromy Johnson: And there's also the thinking of don't get too close because, you know, their sluttiness might rub off on you. And you know what I'm saying? Like like your beliefs where you've gone down the slippery slope might affect their beliefs. In their world, beliefs are everything. Like literally everything. It is the thing that gets you into heaven. And so you have to be careful.

00:36:58 Autumn Lindsey: You gotta be careful. And that's that's how you maintain your members to your club is you have these strict rules and you follow them. And if you don't want to conform to that, well, maybe that's not the club for you. Like you're gonna corrupt these other people.

00:37:12 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:37:13 Autumn Lindsey: Hold on. I gotta plug in my computer. It's just getting sad. Plug in, plug in? No. Oh, okay. We're plugged in. There we go.

00:37:22 Speaker 8: Much better. It's like the little red.

00:37:24 Jeromy Johnson: Light is gone. But I guess more importantly, too, is what have you gained?

00:37:29 Autumn Lindsey: I have gained a deeper understanding of other people, acknowledging that not everyone will be on the same path as me. Not everyone has the same privilege as me. Not everyone has the same life, especially with the way the world is now. I think holding space for what's different and holding space for what you might not understand is really important. And I think that that's what keeps us from judgment, you know, and like growing hatred for people. You know.

00:37:59 Speaker 8: You.

00:37:59 Autumn Lindsey: Grow up learning, God is love. God is this. And then you see such a different God being portrayed by who's teaching you. God is love. God is just. And then you're like, well, if God is love, then there should be understanding for everyone. Why are we excluding? Why are we saying you don't have this right, but I do. And you're like, well, yeah, how do I know I have this right? You know, and then if you're judged by the.

00:38:25 Speaker 8: Fruit.

00:38:25 Autumn Lindsey: Of your actions and the fruit of the spirit, if you want to get biblical on this, there's a lot of rotten fruit coming from a lot of things right now that are claiming God and Christianity.

00:38:36 Jeromy Johnson: And yeah.

00:38:37 Speaker 8: There is.

00:38:37 Autumn Lindsey: And that was the main thing was a lot of this was politically driven in the sense of like, I started feeling, well, if I stay in church and I, I'm part of this evangelical wheel. It's hurting a lot of people that I care about. Or it could hurt a lot of people, groups that I care deeply about. And I couldn't justify remaining a part of something, maybe for my own personal benefit, let's say, because some people just really enjoy community church structure. Some people need it. I do believe some people are better people because they have these rules to follow and these guidelines and this kind of morality that might make them a better person. So I can't judge that. But I know for myself, I didn't even have a chance to figure out if I was going to be a better person or not. That's just, here's where you are. You're born into this. You're part of it. And so I didn't even know what existed outside of that or who I was outside of that, since I had kind of said like, oh, you become a different person. Like it's I think it's the person you're meant to become.

00:39:37 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. You kind of start finding your your true spirit, your true self a little more.

00:39:42 Autumn Lindsey: Yeah. Because I always talk about it like if you go I call it christianese. Like there's certain.

00:39:47 Speaker 8: Phrases it's true.

00:39:48 Autumn Lindsey: Or things.

00:39:49 Speaker 8: That.

00:39:50 Autumn Lindsey: Let you grow so accustomed to. And one of them is, well, it's God's path for me, or this is God's will for me. Or I feel like where I'm at, if I'm going to put it into that language, is God's will for me. Like the way it worked out, the things I was taught. It feels like that's that's what it is. If I were to go back into that mindset. And so it gets judged and it gets seen as not God's will, because that's not that person's version of God's will.

00:40:15 Speaker 8: Yeah.

00:40:15 Autumn Lindsey: It's not maybe the will they want for their life. It's not their.

00:40:18 Speaker 8: Will. Yeah.

00:40:19 Jeromy Johnson: How can God's will lead you away from church? Right? How can God's will lead you away from XYZ? But you're like. But it did, and here I am.

00:40:27 Autumn Lindsey: What if God's in charge of all things and it's God's will for all things. How is it not also God's will?

00:40:33 Speaker 8: For some.

00:40:34 Jeromy Johnson: This was the path that my spirit needed to just flourish. And that's okay. I think there's freedom in that. I think you were mentioning that that political side where twenty sixteen was, was a turning point for a lot of Christians. I have heard over and over and over that that was when a lot of Christians started deconstructing their faith, was when they saw the evangelical church just completely surround what I would argue to be probably the most dangerous, like political figure I have ever seen.

00:41:05 Speaker 8: Right.

00:41:06 Jeromy Johnson: And they just rallied around that.

00:41:08 Autumn Lindsey: And then they commandeered this whole religious structure. It was wild to experience from the outside.

00:41:14 Speaker 8: Yeah.

00:41:14 Autumn Lindsey: If I was still on that inside of everything, I definitely would have been like, nope, I'm done. Like.

00:41:21 Speaker 8: But we had already.

00:41:22 Jeromy Johnson: So what what are your guiding principles now?

00:41:25 Speaker 8: Mm.

00:41:25 Autumn Lindsey: That's a good question I think I think I take a lot still from Jesus's teaching in a lot of ways, just from what I learned growing up. Loving others as yourself is a big part. And I think part of that was learning to love.

00:41:37 Speaker 8: Yourself.

00:41:38 Autumn Lindsey: first kind of that mentality of you have to put your mask on before you can help someone else with theirs in an airplane, you know? Yeah. And as a parent, learning how to be a parent outside of a church structure, um, outside of what I grew up being parented as, I just kept reflecting back on like, okay, I want my kid to learn how to make the right choices for themselves because it's the right thing to do, not because the pastor told them not to or God told them not to. It needs to come from themselves. Because what if they live their whole life thinking, I'm doing what God wants me to do? This is what God told me to do. And then they have an existential crisis. God doesn't pull through in the way they grew up believing that it would, and just complete loss of faith because they never had a foundation.

00:42:23 Speaker 8: Yeah.

00:42:23 Autumn Lindsey: Of listening to I believe that part of ourselves that is connected to God, that part that is just part of us outside of anything. I think listening to that compass, which was very opposite growing up on you shouldn't listen to yourself. Your heart lies to you. Um.

00:42:40 Speaker 8: Oh yeah.

00:42:42 Autumn Lindsey: Don't believe in yourself.

00:42:43 Jeromy Johnson: Don't trust your intuition.

00:42:44 Speaker 8: Don't trust.

00:42:45 Jeromy Johnson: Your gut. Which even that is traumatic, right?

00:42:48 Speaker 8: Like, who do you have if you don't have yourself?

00:42:50 Autumn Lindsey: It's literally all you have. And I started on a, um, a yoga teacher training a while back in the yoga teachings, Yoga Sutras, it says the only truth is that I am a being having a human experience. And that's truly all you can know is is where you are. I'm here and I'm having this experience as a human. When you come down to like logic, thinking that is the only actual I'm touching this table. I have a water next to me like I can. I can see these things around me. I'm in this.

00:43:23 Speaker 8: Body.

00:43:24 Autumn Lindsey: You know. And when you pair it back that you can't really back that simple, simple, simple thing. Everything else is just something we built on top of that. In search of. Of something very simple.

00:43:35 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:43:36 Autumn Lindsey: Now, you know you can go from that what you want. And some people need a structure. Some people need something to believe in outside of themselves. And I think the biggest principle I've learned is like I need to follow my path and what resonates with myself. And I ask myself, does this bring harm to those around me? Does this bring a betterness to those around me?

00:43:57 Speaker 8: Yeah.

00:43:57 Autumn Lindsey: In my actions and in my thoughts.

00:43:59 Jeromy Johnson: So it sounds like it's become a lot, a lot simpler.

00:44:01 Speaker 8: I think that's really simple.

00:44:03 Autumn Lindsey: You know, like and even as far as, like, uh, there was this I forgot what they called it, but basically, like, do you put your shopping cart back when you go shopping? Like something no one's ever going to see? No one's going to know. You just left it in the middle of the parking lot. But what does that do that makes that poor person grabbing the carts? Have to go out an extra mile. Like you're making someone's day a little bit harder, and I don't want to participate in life that way.

00:44:25 Speaker 8: Mm.

00:44:26 Autumn Lindsey: I don't want my actions to make someone else's life harder, unnecessarily. You know, at.

00:44:31 Speaker 8: Least on.

00:44:32 Autumn Lindsey: A conscious level. I mean, you're gonna do stuff on an unconscious level all the time.

00:44:37 Jeromy Johnson: I love what you said about we're just a human having this experience. And therefore you can look at other humans having that experience, and we can all just relate to each other as humans having this experience. I think for me, I've come in and maybe you have too. I've come to a place that I feel like people are just really inherently good. There is a goodness that lies deep within us, and I feel like when people are not doing good or not behaving good, it's because of of pain and fear. But I don't think it's like because of their true nature, their true being.

00:45:10 Autumn Lindsey: I think very few people are inherently just rotten. But what do we learn in church? You are depraved. You need this. You need to repent from your evil, wicked ways. But you're like, I look at my children who were born these perfect, beautiful beings. You know, I'm just they do things that weren't right. And I'd be like, okay, but you've been alive for like two years. How are you gonna understand.

00:45:34 Speaker 8: How this.

00:45:34 Autumn Lindsey: Works if.

00:45:35 Speaker 8: I'm the one that.

00:45:36 Autumn Lindsey: Is.

00:45:36 Speaker 8: In charge.

00:45:36 Autumn Lindsey: Of, like, showing you on a kind and loving way to teach this, parenting has woken a lot of that up. All right, I could spank you, and now you're not gonna do that behavior because it hurt you. Or I, as your loving parent, can gently remind you a lot of times because it's very repetitive to, hey, we don't we don't do that. We need to make a different choice. We need to go a different route, you know, and eventually they get it without harm, without.

00:46:01 Speaker 8: This.

00:46:02 Autumn Lindsey: Hand of their parent that should be holding them, hurting them, just taking a gentler approach to life.

00:46:08 Jeromy Johnson: So I take it you have not told them that they're going to hell unless they ask the little man into their heart? Okay, doesn't that just sound like so like bizarre and traumatic now? like. And I and I know like people mean well and they're not meaning to traumatize little kids. Exactly because it's just their belief and it's just their theology. And I totally get that because I was that I remember telling a kid in middle school that his dad was going to hell because he was Mormon. And I just I think about that to this day. I'm like, God, what a thing to say. But it is very traumatizing to like, think of you telling your kids you're gonna burn in hell forever.

00:46:44 Speaker 8: Right?

00:46:44 Autumn Lindsey: I can't, and I it does make things a little challenging. I compare it to Santa. My kids growing up, we did the whole Santa thing. It was so much fun. We loved it. But I always let them lead on the imagination. I never said, Santa is real. You will believe in Santa. There is this concept of Santa, this magic of Christmas. And they would be like, well, what about this? About Santa? And I'd say, well, what do you think? How do you think it works? And I would just let them come up with whatever. And I'm like, maybe that is like, that's a really cool idea.

00:47:17 Jeromy Johnson: That's so cool. Yeah.

00:47:19 Autumn Lindsey: I hope they take that concept into other ways of life, other spiritual parts of life. And like they've asked, I mean, they're older now. They're thirteen, fourteen and fifteen. There's ways that when I grew up, I think of how my upbringing and how sometimes if you were to say like, oh, but God's got this in control, just pray Jesus will take away your anxiety. Whatever. It does make that conversation easier. You know when your child has a worry, when your child has a concern, when they're maybe fearful of the concept of death? That's a big concept for anyone to try and comprehend. Ultimately, not having like these root scripts to go off of does make things a little challenging. I've always tried to to word things in a way that can help them come to their own understanding for what fits with their.

00:48:05 Speaker 8: Life.

00:48:05 Autumn Lindsey: And their pathway, kind of like let them become who they are first, and then if they want to go to church someday, or they want to seek out a certain religion or way of thinking. Then they're doing that with their full self because I want to experience religion or I want to experience a different way of thinking, not because I'm searching for how to think.

00:48:24 Speaker 8: Yeah.

00:48:25 Jeromy Johnson: But because I want to go through this experience and and maybe they'll find something there, you know, and, and create something and.

00:48:31 Speaker 8: Maybe.

00:48:31 Autumn Lindsey: Something enriches part.

00:48:32 Speaker 8: Of their life absolutely from that.

00:48:34 Autumn Lindsey: But I want them to be kind to people because that's the right thing to do.

00:48:38 Speaker 8: Yeah.

00:48:39 Autumn Lindsey: Regardless of if they're God, regardless of if there's eternal punishment. And I think that was a thing that was worded. If you found out there was no Jesus, no God, no heaven, none of this ever existed. Would you still follow this path? Would you still live in this way? And I thought about that, and I was like, yeah, because, yeah.

00:48:59 Jeromy Johnson: Would you still do the right thing and put your shopping cart away?

00:49:02 Autumn Lindsey: This is the right thing to do.

00:49:04 Speaker 8: Yeah.

00:49:04 Autumn Lindsey: So whether there's an eternal reward or not. Yeah, I am in this life right now and I am experiencing it as a being and I have an impact on those around me.

00:49:14 Jeromy Johnson: That's one of the biggest questions when people learn that I don't believe that there's a eternal damnation in hell. Well then what's to prevent people from just like then? There's no consequences. Then they can just go live, live their life however they want to. And you're like, you're right. But hopefully people aren't living that way just to avoid something. But they're living that way because there's good in it and there's life in it and there's creation in it. It's not just to avoid a punishment. And I think that's that whole different approach.

00:49:43 Autumn Lindsey: Right. And I think that starts as a child. And how your parent responded to you when you did something wrong. Did you get punished? And so now you don't you don't leave your clothes on the floor because you're going to get punished, or do you not leave your clothes on the floor because you might want them to get washed? And if they're not in the laundry, they're not going to get washed, and then you're going to make life harder for your parent who's now picking up after you.

00:50:03 Speaker 8: Yeah. And yeah.

00:50:05 Autumn Lindsey: I've had this conversation people before where it's like, well, God doesn't exist, then nothing matters to me. And I think that's really sad that things only matter because you believe God exists. We're clearly here. Whether there's God or not, we're clearly here. This matters. Having your pet matters like it brings you joy in life. Whether or not you can prove there's something beyond that. Yeah, I don't like the concept of. I'm just. It was that race to eternity that really ignited my anxiety as a high schooler. Like, that's all that matters is, well, someday our pain will be wiped away and we'll be in heaven. Nothing of this matters, not of this world. That was the big, big thing in high school.

00:50:45 Jeromy Johnson: Not a not bumper stickers.

00:50:49 Autumn Lindsey: But we are of this world.

00:50:51 Speaker 8: Yeah.

00:50:51 Autumn Lindsey: Otherwise, why are we here? And I don't think it's just to spread the gospel. I don't think it's just to create more minds that think the same. I think there's a lot more to that. What that is, I don't know.

00:51:03 Jeromy Johnson: But you know, my listeners, a lot of them probably have a very similar story with you. What's what's one thing that you would like to leave them with your parting words to them?

00:51:15 Autumn Lindsey: I think what's brought me the most comfort in life is being okay with not having the answers to everything. Leaving room for discovery and like holding. What we don't know is that can be comforting. If I knew there was a heaven, if I knew for certainty there was. Whatever it is I learned in church, what do I have to discover? Why do I need to continue on? Why? Why am I here in this world? There's so much for me to learn. Gosh, especially having kids, I'm hard on them. Like kind of. They've been. My biggest healing was, was seeing them grow up outside of this structure and just being these magical little beings and leaving room for so much possibility. Yeah, that's been a true joy. And and learning that, like the joy of life is in all those little things.

00:52:00 Jeromy Johnson: Well, Autumn, I feel like your kids are very lucky to have a mom. That's where you're at. I want to thank you so much for sharing your story and your heart and just your spirit and your smile. Thanks, Adam.

00:52:12 Autumn Lindsey: You're welcome.

00:52:15 Jeromy Johnson: If this conversation stirred something in you, maybe it's not asking for an answer. Maybe it's asking for space. Space to listen to your own story. Space to name what helped and what harmed. Space to release shame whether you stayed left or still somewhere in between. You see, repair doesn't always come with agreement. Sometimes it comes with presence, with humility, with the courage to say, I'm willing to hear you now. So wherever you find yourself today, former youth, former pastor, or simply human, may grace meet you there not as a demand, but as an invitation. Thank you so much for listening to Grace. Remember to walk in grace, and if you can, share that grace.