Jeromy Johnson (00:01.954)
Hey everyone, welcome so much to The Slutty Grace. I am here with Chris Jones and this is a man who needs no introduction. In fact, I always write introductions for my guests, but I am coming out of a move and so I am totally disheveled. I'm like, Chris, I don't even have an introduction for you. He's like, that's okay. So he, his name's Chris Jones, great dude. I was on his podcast. His podcast is called Spiritual Hot Sauce.

Chris Jones (00:22.1)
Yeah, it's all good.

Jeromy Johnson (00:29.74)
which is probably the second best name out there in the podcast world. I won't tell you what the best name is, but we'll go second best. And so Chris, welcome.

Chris Jones (00:32.052)
That's fair. That's fair.

Love it.

Thank you. It's good to be here, Jeremy. I appreciate you having me on your show. And I'm looking forward to this. I've been looking forward to this. So this is going to be good.

Jeromy Johnson (00:48.856)
Good, good. I don't get jealous easily, but you have one of the greatest voices for radio. Yeah, you just have that baritone, you don't have many filler words. I have filler words like crazy, which they won't hear, because I'll edit them all out. Like right, I just did it right there. I have a great face for radio, but your voice is awesome for radio.

Chris Jones (00:57.684)
man, I hear that a lot.

Chris Jones (01:17.428)
Thank you, I appreciate it. And I come from leadership, so I learned to speak there. So that's where I got rid of a lot of the filler words, although I will still use them from time to time and I catch myself and have to pull back. But yeah, I always get complimented on my voice. say, man, you've got the voice for podcasting. And I always tell everybody, if you like my voice, you'll like the podcast even more. So there you go.

Jeromy Johnson (01:40.622)
Yes, exactly. So if you guys are looking for a fun podcast that really dives into some spiritual things, but not necessarily like always Christian, like you have a good mix of everything and I really appreciate it. And so Chris, I know, you know, I sent you a bunch of questions. We kind of had a few topics that we were going to be diving into. And we were.

Chris Jones (01:51.752)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (01:59.369)
Mm-hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (02:05.454)
kind of like fear-based faith, let's talk about that, and let's talk about the difference between God and church and how they're not the same. Great topics, we're totally looking forward to it. And then you and I got talking this morning before the podcast, and you mentioned your story, and you're like, look, dude, we can go in two directions. He goes, my story's gonna take up the whole time, and it's gonna be engaging, it's gonna be in depth.

Chris Jones (02:28.519)
more than likely.

Jeromy Johnson (02:33.382)
and there's a great message at the end of it, and I really think that it's important. And you haven't shared this really, right?

Chris Jones (02:39.379)
Mm-hmm.

I haven't. It's so personal to me. I never, and I would never say God told me or anything like that, but you have those moments in your life where you feel like you interacted, that you had a moment with the divine where it helped you understand your path better. And that's kind of what it is. And it came out of suffering. My spirituality was born out of suffering. That's a good way to say it.

Jeromy Johnson (03:01.07)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Jones (03:11.501)
It is different, and it helped me understand God better. And I haven't shared it, except one time I spoke of it publicly, and I haven't even went back and listened to that message I gave. But it's powerful, and I feel like it's time. And I think this is a good place, as I need to start. I think Slutty Grace has an audience that would be receptive, and it might speak to them and help them.

And if it does, then it's done what it's supposed to do.

Jeromy Johnson (03:43.854)
Good. All right, so you feel comfortable sharing that and diving into that, because it sounds like it's pretty personal. All right.

Chris Jones (03:48.712)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I'll just jump right in because it's going to probably require a lot of time. I grew up very religious. My grandfather was a pastor. My dad was pastoral. mean, everybody in my family was a person of faith. They were involved in the work of the church. And everybody just knew that I was going to be a speaker. Matter of fact, the first time I spoke from a pulpit,

think I was nine years old, 10 years old, I gave a message. Yeah. And so everybody just knew Chris is going to be this powerful speaker and I went a totally different direction. So I went out into leadership and started a career in that.

Jeromy Johnson (04:18.958)
wow.

Jeromy Johnson (04:25.55)
Hmm.

You

Jeromy Johnson (04:35.074)
But what kind of leadership?

Chris Jones (04:36.595)
Well, it was in management and I worked in retail but I worked for like big box home improvement retailer and I don't want to tell the name because there's some stuff involved the old those scovers we get into this But I just worked my way up the ladder and they scored us I scored through the roof as a leadership So I just got fast-tracked my very first year. I was rookie store manager of the year That was 2004. So while ago 2005 I was manager of the year the same year

Jeromy Johnson (04:38.497)
Okay.

Chris Jones (05:05.843)
that Forbes Magazine named them best managed retailer. So I was doing very well. I was being fast tracked. I was going right up to district and I was making a lot of money at that time. Yeah, I made a lot of money. Had, you know, I was doing very well. 2006 was just to get through it. And the very beginning of 2007, I was to go into district manager training. So I had.

Jeromy Johnson (05:17.57)
You can, you can make a lot of money in that kind of.

Chris Jones (05:34.088)
I've got, well, I had gotten through the whole year of 2006 and we're into December, the end of the year, and we have to do an inventory. And it's my last little hurdle, and I know I have it. It's done. You know, I'm good. I'm golden. Now through all of this, I've been very faithful in how I pray. I pray often, but it's probably like a lot of us pray, God do this for me. Help me with this. Do this and this.

Jeromy Johnson (05:51.448)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (06:00.622)
Yeah, I was gonna ask like where, what was, yeah, I was gonna ask what was your spiritual life like during this time.

Chris Jones (06:04.325)
Yeah, so I prayed frequently every day, but it's really wanting God to serve me and help me achieve the things I want to in life. I'm not going to church. I'm not reading my Bible anymore. Although I had a moment for, well, it about two to three months where I started reading about, before all this started, a couple years where I just, I felt like everything was just opening up. When I would open up a Bible, it was just kind of, I got

What I needed to get out of it anyway is a good way to say that. But I had moved on from that and I was now in this place where I'm moving up, going to be district level and I'm expected to move past that even. My whole career is set for me. And then on December 13th, and I forget what day it was, but I do remember it was right in middle of inventory. So I went in early. I think I got there at 5.30 AM.

It was about three, four in the afternoon, someone came into the training room where all of ground zero was for the counting. And someone said that one of the employees had fell. Well, it happens. I had like 200 something employees. So we got up, we ran out there and I'm the store manager. And when I get there, I realized that he had fell from a great height. And I know within a few minutes, he's not going to make it. So I'm watching him.

and I'm watching my crew jump in and help and perform CPR. My assistant managers, my ops managers, I immediately call, you know, corporate and man, you talk about going through the ringer that day. So I got there at 530, I'm there all day. The first people they send in to talk to you as a homicide detective to say to anybody, this, this, and this, you know, just making sure.

they're doing their due diligence and then OSHA comes in and it's not your typical OSHA. It's a homicide investigation that lasted three months. The lawyers are on the phone. I have human resources and loss prevention coming in. There was a helicopter flying around the news trying to film inside the store. I'm trying to make all these calls and we just kept going. Yeah, I'd never been in a situation where I just wanted to walk away from my own life except for that day.

Jeromy Johnson (08:19.162)
my gosh.

Chris Jones (08:26.919)
Worst day of my life.

Jeromy Johnson (08:27.266)
Yeah, because you're just coming in for inventory. You're just coming in to count and this is not on your radar, nor should it be. Dang.

Chris Jones (08:30.355)
yeah, this is it. I'm yeah No No, this is retail. I mean, this is you know, this come on. my gosh, and so I I Didn't get home until one in the morning It was a long day and it was the first time I'd been alone by myself because it was a circus and I get home at one in the morning

Jeromy Johnson (08:39.148)
Yeah. Yeah, you're not doing construction, right? We're, yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (08:50.387)
my gosh, yeah.

Chris Jones (08:59.439)
Everybody's asleep. I have small children at the time and they forgot to leave the lights on so I just walk into this quiet dark house and I remember we had lamps table lamps and they had three way switches so he had the big light and he had a Glowing light at the bottom then both of them. I just turned the glowing light on in the bottom and I just sat there alone in the dark and I felt the complete

Jeromy Johnson (09:18.286)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Jones (09:27.727)
weight of my life crashed in on me. I knew there was no moving up. I knew that what was going to be happening. Everything in my life at that point that I'd countered was gone. My whole path was changing. My road, you know, had ended of what I had planned and thought it was going to be. Yeah, so I sat there at one o'clock in the morning. Just it was I remember it.

Jeromy Johnson (09:44.803)
Really?

Chris Jones (09:52.882)
Man, I remember the dimness of the room, the soft glow running up the wall, and I just said, I'm going to go get my Bible. And I went and dug out my Bible. I had to find it. And I remember clenching it. And I remember just looking up and saying, God, please help me. And I opened the Bible and I look at it. And when I look down in the dim light,

Jeromy Johnson (10:04.046)
Wow.

Jeromy Johnson (10:16.558)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (10:21.459)
my eyes went to where I had opened it to, which was 2 Corinthians 12, 9. It was grace. And my grace is sufficient for thee. My strength is made perfect in weakness. And I did not want to hear that. What I wanted to hear was, sit still, make your enemy your foot still. I wanted to hear peace. I want to hear something from Psalms. I wanted to hear that I will make a way. And I didn't get that. What I got was grace.

Jeromy Johnson (10:32.141)
Mm.

Jeromy Johnson (10:36.748)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (10:45.432)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (10:49.827)
Wow.

Chris Jones (10:50.515)
I wasn't hearing it. And I shut the Bible and I said, yeah, no, I'm, uh-uh, I'll do this myself. And that's literally what I said. And I walked away from that moment.

Jeromy Johnson (10:56.152)
you

Jeromy Johnson (10:59.63)
Wow. So it was just, was the message that you weren't needing. At least what you have, what you thought you needed, but it's what you probably needed at that moment.

Chris Jones (11:03.707)
not the one I wanted. It's not what I wanted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So again, this is December 13 2006. Well, you know, I am full of ego, arrogance and pride. You know, I've been very successful. And I was like, I'll get through this. And I did get through it. It was three, four months, they give me a written accommodation for how I handled it. And it was, but you know, they put me on the back burner to see how I did.

Jeromy Johnson (11:11.043)
Wow.

Chris Jones (11:33.426)
You know, because there's things that come from this, and I did. I didn't know it at the time, but I would have suffered from PTSD, from the stress and the pressure of leaving a group like that, through that, and witnessing one of your employees die. So, I just kept going, you know. I just, out of sheer tenacity and ego and in all honesty, pride and arrogance, I'm going to do this.

Jeromy Johnson (11:33.879)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (11:46.392)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Chris Jones (12:01.875)
You know, I'm used to everything just kind of being easy for me in that environment. And I just kept going as a leader. I was just on point and go, go, go. But the further I went and the harder I went and I got sent to a bigger store from it and they said, well, you can't get promoted right now. So here's the highest volume store. so I went to that and I wasn't ready. Things weren't, we're starting to catch up with me, you know, starting to wind down. starting to feel the weight of it. And I'm.

Jeromy Johnson (12:19.426)
Wow.

Chris Jones (12:31.411)
I'm evident that I have post-traumatic stress disorder, but I have other things in my life going on. It's like the perfect storm and I just won't stop. I keep pushing and pushing in this path and in this direction that I'm going that I'm going to do this. Well, it impacts everything in my life. I'm going through a divorce now and everything in my life is just kind of crashing in. And it does, it just crashes in. And I think that's right around 2000.

Jeromy Johnson (12:46.381)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (13:01.331)
I know, 10 or so, nine. And I go through a divorce and I'm in a wrong place, a wrong state of mind, and I just marry somebody else, you know? Making some bad decisions on top of bad decisions. And still, in arrogance and pride, I got this, I'm Chris Jones. You know, there used to be a little catchphrase from the district and they'd say, I'm Chris Jones. Because Chris can do anything, and Chris wasn't. know, Chris was struggling now.

Jeromy Johnson (13:13.89)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (13:26.349)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (13:30.782)
But I kept saying, I've got this. I'm still Chris Jones. I will still pull this out. But I kept getting worse and everything that was so easy before wasn't. And then in 2012, this company that had held me and celebrated as one of their top leaders that was supposed to go on to be one of their emergent leaders that would help run the company. They invited me to leave.

Jeromy Johnson (13:30.786)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (13:38.339)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (14:00.434)
That's where we were at. Yeah. So I said I was totally made bad decisions and not because I was so lost, you know, that was my identity.

Jeromy Johnson (14:03.265)
Wow.

Jeromy Johnson (14:09.975)
So it was affecting, yeah, so it was affecting work, everything else. Looking back, do think there were touches of depression and other things going on? Yeah.

Chris Jones (14:13.767)
It was everything. It was everything.

Chris Jones (14:19.761)
for sure. There's depression, anxiety, stress. You know, I remember when December 13th, every year, a day or two, I would start having anxiety and I would start looking at where, you know, he fell off a very tall ladder. I would start looking at the ladders. And I remember wanting people, as we got closer to December 13th, to stay off the ladders. I would start having anxiety, you know? So, yeah, I just, I was lost.

Jeromy Johnson (14:30.528)
Mmm.

Jeromy Johnson (14:43.437)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Jones (14:47.633)
And I just, but I had so much pride, but the further I ran, the more I lost. So after that, I made a really bad decision because I had a background in music before all of this. And so I said, I'm just going to cash out my 401k. Had I not done that, I'm set for life. You know, I did well, but I cashed it all out at the exact wrong time. I built a studio and, you know, it didn't, it didn't fare well. was the wrong time, wrong place.

Jeromy Johnson (14:52.758)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (15:03.788)
Mm-hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (15:13.441)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (15:14.983)
bad idea, but I'm not in my right state of mind. But yet I keep going. You know, I just keep going and going and going until we get to 2019. I'm going through yet another divorce. And the agreement was, I'm going to finish fixing up the house. We bought a big fixer upper and I was going to sell it. Should have made a lot of money from it.

Jeromy Johnson (15:17.59)
No.

Jeromy Johnson (15:29.687)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (15:40.616)
You know, I'm like, I'm Chris Jones. I got this. So I'm fixing up this house and I'm going to get it taken care of, right? And I am. And I get to a point where I rip up the floor because I'm going to get all the floors done and I'm into the subfloor and I find a huge problem. It's going to take a lot of money to correctly fix the issues I found on one of the entire floors. And I don't really have the skill set to do what needs to happen or the time.

Jeromy Johnson (15:46.134)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (15:55.372)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (16:05.739)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (16:07.675)
And then I had one of those moments with myself where you look yourself in the mirror and say, you got 86,400 seconds in a day. What are you doing with your time? If you can look up, you can get up. A lion doesn't tell you it's a lion. It's just a lion. Now go and get it done. You know, it's one of those things where you're just going to sheer will just get it done and push your emotions down. And that's what I did. So I started going and fixing this floor and I was, I was getting it correctly fixed.

Jeromy Johnson (16:26.7)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (16:36.345)
I was going through it and I got about two-thirds of the way, Jeremy, and I ran out of me. That's the only way I know to describe it. All of my pride, all of my arrogance, my ego, everything of who I am, my confidence, I ran out of everything on that floor. And I realized if I can't get this floor fixed, I'm going to lose what little bit I've got in this house and it's all done. I'm gone.

Jeromy Johnson (16:47.309)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (16:56.887)
Wow.

Chris Jones (17:05.421)
And I just, on my knees, because this was working on the floor, I just put the tools down and I looked up to God and I said, God help. Just please help. Don't let me lose what little I have. And there was an intervention. I got some help. They fixed it. I was able to afford it. The house sold. I got everything. And it was, I mean, a rush. Go, go, go, go, go. I'm going through divorce trying to get this house done and get out. And I get into an apartment.

while I'm looking for my house I'm gonna buy as a, you know, I'm being single now. And my first day I wake up in the apartment, it's a Sunday. And it's like the first time that all of these months of working on the house and this blur of what I was calling life at that time, I'm now in the apartment and everything hits, you know? And I was like,

Jeromy Johnson (17:39.18)
Mm-hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (17:59.66)
Like everything hits like the emotions, it just kind of floods over you. It, yeah.

Chris Jones (18:02.707)
You realize you made it, you're there. It's almost like in a movie where you see someone, they fall into those rapids, and you're trying to make it, you're trying to stay alive, and there's like a weird little intervention where the universe taps a log your way, you're able to grab it and get to dry ground, and you make it to the other side, and you just have that moment of decompression, realizing what you just went through. And that's what that was like for me that morning.

Jeromy Johnson (18:24.44)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Jones (18:32.235)
And this was a Sunday morning. And I knew I didn't have, I don't have nothing to do, just unpack everything. And I was like, nah, it's time. It's time. I went and dug out my Bible. Now we are in 2020 now. And so what the last time I really

Jeromy Johnson (18:49.902)
What happened in 2020? Just some small, yeah, nothing stressful. Yeah.

Chris Jones (18:53.043)
Yeah, there's nothing else really going on. So yeah, so I'm in isolation here. And it's my first day of running through 2019, fixing up the house. It's sold in the, you know, and now I'm in 2020. And I get to the end of 2020. And I'm on the other side. And it's early in the morning. And I go dig out my Bible. I had to go find my Bible. And I go dig it out.

And I remember thinking, I need to be restored. I want back everything I've lost. You know, I felt so cheated in life. I was so frustrated. And again, like I did that night, back on December 13th of 2006, I looked up in the air and I said, God, please help. And I just randomly opened my Bible again as I'm looking up and I looked down and I promise you, Jeremy, look in my eyes.

Look in my eyes, I promise you, I'm looking at 2 Corinthians 12, 9. I was like, there's no way I opened it to the exact same. So over a thousand pages in that Bible. I've checked. I still have that Bible.

And I almost closed it again and said, I'm not doing this.

Jeromy Johnson (20:10.542)
And that is my grace is sufficient for you.

Chris Jones (20:12.539)
Yes, my grace is sufficient for thee. My strength is made perfect in weakness. And there was, yeah, and I was, yeah, and yeah, yeah. And I'm like, so I'm shutting, I'm going to shut the Bible and something in me, and again, I'm not saying God or nothing like that. just, something in me said, no, you need to read. Keep reading. Don't walk away. We know how that turned out.

Jeromy Johnson (20:18.19)
Which is like, what you don't want to hear is that word weakness, right? You're like, I'm Chris Jones. And he's like, and you'll be made perfect in weakness. Wow.

Chris Jones (20:42.835)
You know, don't just keep reading. So I did. I started reading and I spent about an hour there and it just those verses opened up for me and I got a whole new understanding. I got a whole teaching on just those verses that I give. as I'm reading it and as I'm getting this understanding, I just have a sense that I'm not alone and I'm feeling comfort for the first time in a long, long

I don't know if you know what I mean, but where I feel kind of rest and I spent about an hour in there and I and I stop And I just I feel like the prodigal son, you know, I just I just I feel this grace and I just wanted to hear some preaching some teaching You know, so I turn on the television at Sunday and I hear a message and it's just a message But there's something that said that stands out to me

And it says this, says, if God isn't changing the circumstances you're praying about, then God's going to use those circumstances to change you. And as soon as I heard it, something like went off in me and I was like, yeah, no, no. So I just let that go, you know, hey, I'm not worried about that. So I start unpacking through the day and I'm starting to get settled in my apartment and everything before I go house honing. And that show reruns again.

Jeromy Johnson (22:00.872)
You

Chris Jones (22:13.489)
Okay, so I don't even think about it until I hear it again. If God's not changing those circumstances you're praying about, He's going to use those circumstances to change you. And I stopped what I was doing and I turned to look at the television and I was like, what does that mean? What am I supposed to be hearing here? And I'm starting to soften up to it. But, I said, you know, I keep going. I started keep going back to unpacking. Well,

Jeromy Johnson (22:38.947)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (22:40.261)
So I get done with what I'm doing that day. It's later that evening. And now I'm just sitting down and resting, getting ready eat my dinner and everything. And that show comes back on and I see it. And this time, yeah, and I grab my phone and I record it. I still have it today. And that's gonna come up here in a few minutes and you'll understand why that's so important.

Jeromy Johnson (22:51.618)
A third time.

Jeromy Johnson (22:56.856)
Wow.

Chris Jones (23:03.515)
And I record it and as soon as I heard it this time, if God's not changing the circumstances you're praying about, then God's going to use us. I knew, Chris, you're going to have to give up what you want. You're going to have to give it up and you're going to have to go to God. And I put everything down. turned everything off and I said, okay, God, okay, I give whatever you want. Your will be done above everything I want. And immediately.

Jeromy Johnson (23:09.07)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (23:33.049)
off we went running. So I'm going to tell you, I'm going to interject here and I'm going to start mixing in some some verses that I came out of this and Lou. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Jeromy Johnson (23:43.673)
So let me hop in really quick, because it took three times. God knew how hard-headed you were. He's like, okay, first time, it's almost like Peter, where he's like, do you love me, do you love me, do you love me? He's like, Chris, these circumstances, like, shut up. These circumstances, get out of here. But what thing airs three times at that moment, right? And then the third time, you're like, okay, this has to be something. So that's crazy, dude.

Chris Jones (23:51.612)
I'm full of pride, I never thought about that, but you're right. You're right.

I know, right?

Chris Jones (24:07.463)
Yeah, only me.

I got it. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I've studied since then, and I'll tell you what the verses I got from this, and then I'll tell you my experience. But in Luke 9, 23, and Matthew 16, 24, and in Mark 8, 34, Jesus tells His disciples,

Jeromy Johnson (24:25.099)
do.

Chris Jones (24:41.607)
I've always thought that's strange wording, but through my process, I've come to understand in part anyway. I'm not trying to make it sound like I know all. I don't. I know what little I know. But what Jesus is saying is to literally follow me. See, when in my situation, my road ran out, my path round, everything I thought was going to be there was gone. What I thought would be there the rest of my life, it stopped.

Jeromy Johnson (25:06.574)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (25:09.991)
You know, I talk about on the podcast, The Compass, North, South, East, and West, and I say that North and South is things we can control. is in South represents our inner duality. It's the battle within. North is our emotions, our wants, our needs, our desires, our fears, and emotions want immediate gratification. They don't understand investment of long-term behaviors. The polar opposite of that is a word that Jesus used, Kardia, which is Greek for heart.

In the Greek definition of heart, emotions aren't in the definition. It means your essence, your center. It's your will. It's how you choose. So your will understands investment of long-term behaviors to get to a better place. And these two components of ourselves, these two parts of us are fighting for control always. So the idea isn't to always be in South though, or to always be in North. I think the ideal place to get to is stay in the center.

because life is a marathon, it's not a sprint. But East and West, said on the podcast, represents the spiritual aspects. And what I'm about to share is East. And East is suffering in things that we have no control over, but yet they have purpose. There's post-traumatic growth. It's when you lose your identity. It's in those like having, going through a terrible divorce or financial crisis or health crisis or...

Jeromy Johnson (26:21.324)
Okay.

Jeromy Johnson (26:27.65)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (26:38.513)
Just everything that you thought when the road ends and there's nothing else, I call this east on your compass. That's where you go and do what I'm about to describe what Jesus says to do. And I call it the five life cycles. And the first thing I think about what Jesus says, deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me. That whosoever loses their life for my sake, she'll find it. So what is Jesus actually saying?

Jeromy Johnson (26:53.91)
Okay.

Chris Jones (27:07.075)
this. What did Jesus do around the crucifixion and the cross? The first thing he did was go to his garden of Gethsemane, and in the garden of Gethsemane, he goes to God and says, I don't want to do this. I want, I let this cup pass for me. I don't want no part of this. I want to stay with what I have. I want to do what I've always been able to do, but he keeps going until he finally says to God, but your will be done. I give it up. Now he had to do this alone.

Jeromy Johnson (27:15.287)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (27:32.525)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (27:35.7)
Because if you remember, his disciples fell asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane. They couldn't go into the garden with him to do this. This is between you and God. It's like me. my moment that night on December 6th, I'm sorry, December 13th of 2006 at 1 a.m. was my moment in the Garden of Gethsemane. What I should have done is said, God, your will be done. But I wouldn't give up my will.

Jeromy Johnson (27:56.023)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (28:02.449)
You know, I was like Jesus was saying, I don't want this cup. Let it pass from me. And God was wanting me to push on and say, but your will be done and let him get involved in the situation. But I didn't do that. Jesus pushed in. I walked out. So after Jesus says, but your will be done, the next step is you go to the cross and it's at the cross that you die to self. Everything that you are holding on to.

Jeromy Johnson (28:03.457)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (28:17.815)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (28:28.977)
your wants, what you felt like was always going to be, what you was counting on, the things that you had prioritized above everything else, you have to die to, and you have to be willing to take what He wants for you. That's what happened with Jesus. And then from the cross, see, that's what happened to me on when I went back and opened it up and I found where's God at? Well, God's in the garden waiting for me. He's right where He was, you know.

Jeromy Johnson (28:32.929)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (28:40.651)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (28:54.317)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (28:56.511)
You have to go through this, Chris. This is for you. So I died to self, which took me to the cross. And now from the cross, you go to the tomb. And this is where that phrase that meant so, that meant so much to me that I heard three times comes into play. See, when you go into the tomb, like Jesus did, your circumstances don't change, but God uses the circumstances to change you.

Jeromy Johnson (29:23.104)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Jones (29:23.579)
So, and that's the longest time of the process. was, man, several months just isolated. And all I did, it wasn't three days. I'm not that evolved as Jesus, you know? So I was in there for several months. And every time I would want to listen to preaching or teaching, was like, felt, no, turn it off. Turn it off. You go read, you go, and I did. And I just started like this understanding, like what I'm sharing with you. I would start getting these things.

Jeromy Johnson (29:31.029)
It wasn't just it wasn't just three days.

Jeromy Johnson (29:44.098)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (29:53.396)
I went through a hard hard time and that was dying to my pride and So everything that could trigger my pride would come up and I could just feel it, you know Yeah, and it was just break and and but as several months of learning several months of giving in and my Circumstances changing me and finally because I couldn't just give it up I kept wanting to take it back when I was in the tomb, but I'd have to give it back But you know when Jesus resurrected

Jeromy Johnson (30:03.489)
Really?

Jeromy Johnson (30:18.849)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (30:23.463)
He wasn't restored. Jesus was transformed. And see, his scars spoke. His scar.

Jeromy Johnson (30:28.301)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (30:31.733)
And were you wanting at this point just to be restored? Were you just wanting like, I want my job back, I want a wife back, I want my family back, I want my 401K back, and that's not what happened?

Chris Jones (30:35.559)
Yes, yes, you got it. I want it all back what I've lost. That's not what was happening. And see, when Jesus resurrects, he has these scars. You remember with Thomas, comps won't believe it's him. He says, put your hands in my scars. I call it divine scars. You have divine scars that will speak to people in ways your words can't. Cause if I don't know if you're aware of this, when Jesus resurrects, he doesn't heal anybody anymore.

Jeromy Johnson (31:05.069)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (31:05.095)
He doesn't cast out any demons. He doesn't feed anybody. He doesn't perform any miracles. What Jesus does is go around witnessing and let people see what he has become. He has transformed into something different. He will never again in that 40 day time that he witnesses, he'll feed, perform miracles. He just witnesses. You know, he just lets the scars speak. So that's what I did. See, when I came out of my tomb,

Jeromy Johnson (31:17.186)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (31:33.372)
I was changed. I wasn't the same. So I was willing to go to a different identity from the one that I had lost. And I had scars from it. You're hearing my scars now. See, this is my scar speaking. There's people that cannot relate to what I'm talking about. And my scars are speaking to them in ways that my words can't. So by going to my garden and then going to

Jeromy Johnson (31:46.422)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (31:55.18)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Jones (32:00.5)
my cross and dying to my will, which for me was a process, and then going to the tomb, you know, or I call it the cave. It's part of the hero's journey. I don't know if you're familiar with that story, but that's the hero's journey. So Jesus is the only, you know, the hero's journey is 4,600 years old from Mesopotamia. The first three written stories that we have.

Jeromy Johnson (32:11.201)
Yeah, I am. Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (32:23.777)
Wait, it didn't come from George Lucas? thought he...

Chris Jones (32:27.155)
George Lucas famously said that if Joseph Campbell had not written the hero with a thousand faces, which tells about the hero's journey, you wouldn't have Star Wars. So yeah, he said that's where he got it from. But we're still telling the same story. But it's like the knowledge is there, but we lack the wisdom of what to do with it. And I've studied the hero's journey, and the only one that I've ever seen is Jesus that says, here, do like me.

Jeromy Johnson (32:37.045)
Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.

Jeromy Johnson (32:47.394)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (32:55.825)
because in this is healing, there's transformation. So it's a whole different thing. It's like Jesus is giving us the wisdom that we don't have outside of this. So he says, you know, go find your garden of Gethsemane, go to the cross, get to your cave or the tomb, you'll resurrect. You'll still have the scars from the adversity you went through, but they're going to speak to others. And now you're going to witness on what you went through in this transformation.

Jeromy Johnson (32:58.765)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (33:17.45)
And

Jeromy Johnson (33:22.645)
And would you say that cave moment was just, you said it lasted about months, so three, four months was just you listening, you just being present, you just being still. Would you say like that, that kind of defines that? I'm trying to understand what those months were like.

Chris Jones (33:29.037)
Several, no several months, several months.

Chris Jones (33:43.06)
Yeah, so let me, I literally would get a verse like 2 Corinthians 12, 9 and read it for two or three hours. I mean, just do a deep dive and it would just open up. And I don't know if you're familiar with hermeneutical pluralism, but where you get multiple understandings from the same scripture and it starts opening up and looking three dimensional. That's kind of what was going on. There was some very painful moments in the cave, but at the same time,

Jeromy Johnson (34:09.272)
Sure.

Chris Jones (34:13.267)
It's the most beautiful, peaceful, was healing. It's like being in a cocoon. That's a great way to describe it. It's like being in a cocoon and it was like you're being healed, you're being transformed. The things that's going on isn't going away, but they are being used to force you into a different position in place as you move into something different. And that's the only way you know to explain it, but it is

Jeromy Johnson (34:23.074)
Hmm, okay.

Chris Jones (34:42.457)
some of the most beautiful moments of my life was in the cave. And so when I came out, I was completely different. And now where I'm at, if you could give me everything I had back plus twice as much, no, I'm staying right where I am. Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (34:45.048)
Wow.

Jeromy Johnson (34:55.692)
Isn't that crazy? Like you're so transformed, you look back and you're like, don't even want that other stuff. Like you couldn't force it on me.

Chris Jones (35:01.447)
Yeah, yeah, there's I'm in a whole different place. So here's the thing. I remember being at the end of the several months and I start you start questioning yourself. I'm going through the part where my pride is being broke, which is

Jeromy Johnson (35:18.028)
Yeah, because you don't know where this is heading. You don't know what this is creating. You don't know. You're you're just in the moment. Yeah, you're in that space.

Chris Jones (35:21.199)
You have to trust. It's faith. That's it. Yeah, that's exactly right. And so I decided.

I need to know that everything is good. Oh my God, I need to know that everything, I'm where I'm supposed to be. You know what I mean? So I get out my phone. I was like, I'm going to listen to that message again. If God isn't changing those circumstances you're praying about, then God is using those circumstances to change you. But when I pulled it up to listen to it, I realized I didn't even know what day it was. It was on December 13th.

Jeromy Johnson (35:44.526)
You

Chris Jones (35:59.892)
2020, 14 years to the day that I had been there 14 years earlier. I had no idea, which is crazy in and of itself because there's never been a time where up until through that, that two to three days, like I told you, I started feeling anxiety because I know what dates come in December 13th. Yeah. No, it doesn't. Yeah. So in that moment with everything, when I went back to the garden,

Jeromy Johnson (36:06.316)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (36:17.677)
Yeah, December 13th doesn't just sneak up on you like it did right now. Interesting.

Chris Jones (36:27.825)
What God had for me was a new identity. was transformation into something different. Just like Jesus was never going to be the same of what he was before he went into the tomb. When he come out, he was different, but he was better. There was something more beautiful or something, you know, he was, he was, he was going differently. He was witnessing to people and giving them something. What everything

had come to a culmination of his ministry and his message of why he came to us to bring us this life. And now he's saying, this is it. Here's the life. Here's here's the full information you need to know. So, yeah, after I went through that. I just started deep diving in my own faith. You know, I have a metaphor that I use that keeps coming up on my podcast, and I call it the bull elephant.

Metaphor and I don't know if you're familiar with that Yeah, so and I use it like this and If you're like me and you grew up like when I was eight nine years old and I was saved You know if you'd have asked me and my friends fucking Sunday school. Are you saved? Yeah, what do you say from I'm saved from hell? you know, that's what I'm safe from and And I was like why was wrong with us

Jeromy Johnson (37:26.753)
Yeah, no, I've heard it, yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (37:44.747)
Yeah, absolutely. Amen, brother. Yeah.

Chris Jones (37:53.906)
And then I realized if you have a fear-based religion, what's going to come out of it is community. And because in the metaphor of the elephant, I'll tie this together. We come together to talk about the bull elephant that's out in the jungle. And in that community, we find beauty, we find encouragement and comfort, which is exactly what Paul says the church is for. What we're supposed to gather for is encouragement and comfort. And to keep us going.

Jeromy Johnson (38:17.685)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Jones (38:23.023)
in our race, you know, and but when you come together in encouragement and comfort and in community, if it's in a fear based religion, that's where you like it. That's where you're comfortable. But the real experience is going out into the jungle in a solo flight and going through everything that entails looking for the bull elephant yourself and then getting that experience.

of experiencing firsthand the bull elephant and what it's really like and how transforming that is in your life to have that moment. And then when you go back to the group, you know, now you encourage and comfort them with what you've experienced with the bull elephant. But if you're terrified of the bull elephant, if you've been taught that God is going to eternally torment you forever and ever if you don't love him,

Why would you ever go looking for the bull elephant? You're not. Community is where you find the beauty. You know, I gave a message on my on spiritual hot sauce about sister Christian and it was a real life story I read that challenged me really hard as I'm going through this and you're going to judge me for this. But I read last words and not famous last words, just ordinary people.

Jeromy Johnson (39:21.185)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (39:48.808)
you know, their last words with their family, because I find there's wisdom in that, things that you need to take and reflect on and try to improve on. And I read one where the woman had spent her whole life in church and like she had her pew, where her seat, where she always was, every time the doors was open, that's where you would find her, you know, anytime the church had a social event, she was there supporting.

Jeromy Johnson (39:48.865)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (39:53.003)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Chris Jones (40:15.643)
She had spent her whole life in church doing this and on her deathbed. was natural age You would think of passing on her children said her last words was I regret all the time I spent with the church. a waste and it cut me to the core of who I was And I and I just spent a lot of time trying to figure this out And then it I realized

Jeromy Johnson (40:18.295)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (40:29.506)
Wow.

Jeromy Johnson (40:34.061)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (40:41.555)
that if you're doing exactly what we're saying, if you see the church as the destination, the community, because you're too afraid to go find the bull elephant, you know, and yeah, and you run to the church and you get your encouragement and comfort, which is what it's for, to keep you running on your race, but you go back to your starting line. And every Sunday you go to church and then you come back to your starting line. At the end of a lifetime of doing that, you're going to find that you never went anywhere.

Jeromy Johnson (40:48.492)
Yeah.

By yourself, yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (41:10.861)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (41:11.335)
You just spend a lot of time at the table of encouragement. Always think of it as like a marathon. You see the tables set up of the hydration they've got, and you can run by and you get some, and they cheer you on. Keep going, keep going. That's what I think of as church. It should be, you know. It's encouragement to keep you going.

Jeromy Johnson (41:18.611)
Yeah, yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (41:26.241)
Yeah.

But instead, church has become like we sit around that table and just start jugging water and forget about the race.

Chris Jones (41:34.546)
And yeah, exactly. And we feel like we're doing what we should be doing because a compromised church has done that. It's easy to... I gave a message, and I think this is a message everybody should go listen to, of why we fear God. But when you create a religion on fear... So perfect... I started with this. Perfect love casts out fear.

Jeromy Johnson (41:42.465)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (42:02.183)
but perfectly crafted fear creates control and makes love obsolete. And now you just have community. And when you only have community, you're not experiencing the bull elephant. And now you get caught up in religion. And a good religion should serve you and give you the tools you need, like we talk about the compass to get to a better place in life. But a bad religion gets you serving it.

Jeromy Johnson (42:10.732)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (42:28.695)
Yeah, so you're saying like you, there's this bull elephant out there that we're all afraid of, so we huddle up in a building and we just encourage each other and hey, there's that bull elephant, but you're like, no, I went out to the jungle, I went out to face the bull elephant and do it, and then when you come back to that building where the people are huddled, then you can say, let me share with you what I experienced and encourage them to get out there by themselves, not like I'll walk with you, like no, go out by yourself.

Chris Jones (42:41.779)
where I live.

Chris Jones (42:58.397)
Yeah, go find it. Go find it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I said, I was born out of suffering. So, you you're forced to get out of your comfort zone in that situation. So I did. But yeah, I mean, the I believe the church was hijacked back in the fourth century with something other than what it originally was. And when it's presented the way that it is kind of been now, it sounds like there's enemy at the gate.

Jeromy Johnson (42:59.509)
and then come back.

Jeromy Johnson (43:05.133)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Jones (43:26.385)
You know, and it's God's the enemy and he said, listen, you will either serve and love me or I will use all my power to torment you in such a way. I won't let you die. Why am I going to go run into that guy? I'm not, I'm all you need to say is or else I'll go hang out with them, but don't talk to me about love. Cause this isn't love. This is control. This is coercion. You know, this isn't

Jeromy Johnson (43:27.179)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (43:36.331)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (43:45.707)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (43:49.439)
And it honestly, if you're honest, it paints God worse than Satan. Hands down, you know?

Chris Jones (43:53.556)
I've said before the pulpit's done more damage than the enemy ever could You know, and it's not done maliciously It's not my like I said my dad and my grandfather's pastors It was expected that I would be and it wasn't they honestly believed that's what they were supposed to be doing You know, they thought they were doing right because that's what they were taught in the religion of you know I always say there's a difference There's the religion of the worship of the deity of Christ as a believer

Jeromy Johnson (43:59.608)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (44:08.608)
Mm-hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (44:11.979)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (44:15.563)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Jones (44:22.257)
And then there's a disciple of Christ, the way, you your path, your journey, what I'm trying to do. I'm not saying I'm great at it, but that's I'm trying. And there's a whole thing that comes with that. See, you can be a believer. You can be a worshiper of the deity of Christ and have nothing to do with discipleship of Christ. You know, they're not the same thing. And discipleship requires those moments of, you know, go finding your bull elephant, go finding God.

Jeromy Johnson (44:30.7)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (44:49.035)
Yeah. So your story you you had the garden you had the cross you had the the cave or the the tomb and then the fourth one was resurrection.

Chris Jones (44:52.733)
Yes.

Chris Jones (44:57.181)
transformation, resurrection, yeah, yeah, a new, you'll, you rise up a new person, you know, a new identity in Christ, you know, transformation, and then fifth, you witness about it, you share your story, so it helps others, you know, the, and it doesn't have to be the kind of suffering I went through that takes you there, I think you can just go there, you don't, you, it's just having that

Jeromy Johnson (45:12.791)
Hmm. Hmm.

Chris Jones (45:23.645)
Garden of Gethsemane where you trust God and you're there in pursuit of God.

Jeromy Johnson (45:27.617)
Yeah, and I think the suffering is important and I think it looks different for everyone, right? Like your suffering is gonna look different than what my suffering has been and what my suffering has brought about. But I think there is something very transformative in that process of suffering and it's unavoidable. You some people call it, you you talk about that cave and...

Chris Jones (45:40.475)
Absolutely.

Chris Jones (45:48.967)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (45:53.558)
Some people call that the dark night of the soul, right? Where there's just this transformation that's happening. But you would say like you're probably more in that coming back from the bull, the elephant bull, and you're coming back and now you're trying to just share and just open up your heart with what you're, yeah.

Chris Jones (45:56.049)
Yeah, yeah.

Chris Jones (46:05.073)
Yeah, yeah, I've got the scars.

Chris Jones (46:11.249)
I'm carefully sharing. Yeah, I have people. Yeah, yeah. don't push anybody out. So anybody that wants to hear what I have to say. And like, I have a lot of great conversations with other people on spiritual hot sauce. Like you and I had a great conversation on my podcast.

But I think the good stuff is in those solo podcast episodes where I dive down and deep like what I just said, and there's different pieces and parts I share. I never have come out and just really share what I believe. I don't know if it's that important, but what's important is that when you hear those little pieces that's good that you can take and use in your own life. And pertaining to suffering, I have a saying about that. I say,

Jeromy Johnson (46:38.295)
Can be,

Jeromy Johnson (46:48.887)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (47:03.121)
that in adversity, you're going to grow. Now you will either grow stronger, further ahead and better prepared for the future, or you're going to grow weaker, further behind and further frustrated with life. But how you grow is heavily dependent on how you find your way to your garden of Gethsemane and what kind of attitude you have as you go through this. If you're willing to let go or grab something else and trust God that he's going to get you through it, even if it's not what you

Jeromy Johnson (47:12.215)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (47:17.089)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (47:23.501)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (47:26.859)
Yeah, I know you...

Chris Jones (47:32.815)
want it to be when he gets done, you're going to be happy.

Jeromy Johnson (47:37.145)
Yeah, I you bring up a good point that not everyone grows through that suffering, not everyone grows through those experiences. And I don't know, I feel like as we get older, you see people either growing towards improvement or getting worse. They just get sadder and madder and more fearful, or they find more freedom from fear, they find more freedom from anger, they find more freedom. And there isn't...

Chris Jones (47:46.482)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (47:53.639)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (47:59.518)
Yes.

Jeromy Johnson (48:03.786)
I don't know, I haven't seen anyone who's just in the middle. Like it's either you're going down or you're going up. And there can be a point where like you're going down and then you go up. But it's just, yeah, it's all interesting in how we receive that. But like you, were strong-headed for so long, you weren't open to it, but something transformed you. Something just got through you and you weren't even looking for it. And so part of it is like,

Chris Jones (48:09.734)
one or the other.

Chris Jones (48:22.451)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (48:29.907)
Mm-mm.

Jeromy Johnson (48:34.456)
People just have to be open to and wait for that transformative moment, but even their response...

Jeromy Johnson (48:46.626)
sometimes doesn't come from, you know, doesn't come from them. Like how much did you control of where you're at now? I look at my life and I look back, I think, but at some point your heart was made soft, at some point your heart was made open, and I think that's love and grace. I think that's God's love and grace just coming in and just making us soft and open.

Chris Jones (48:50.269)
Right. I didn't.

Chris Jones (49:02.906)
for sure.

Chris Jones (49:08.467)
Yeah, yeah, except just because you're on a and I always say we all have a path We will also have free will you know god's going to do everything he can to get you to the path I don't think it was god beating me up trying to get me to where I needed to be that's just life because i'm off path And it's him trying to help me get to where I need to be And I think that once I gave up You know What I had in the past

Jeromy Johnson (49:15.608)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (49:20.749)
Mm-mm.

Jeromy Johnson (49:24.588)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (49:33.869)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (49:36.454)
And was willing to say, okay, your will be done. I'm willing to let go of my vision of what I wanted and say, okay, your will, not mine. Die to self. That's what the cross means. You got to die to your own will and give it to him and he'll give you something better. It may not be what you want, but it may be what you need. But once you get there and you experience the peace, the love and the grace, then you understand this, this was all worth it. You know, this, this is.

Jeromy Johnson (49:41.283)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (49:49.976)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (50:04.803)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (50:05.875)
This is where you need to be. This is the good stuff in life, you know, until you get to the point where you're manifesting Galatians 5, 22 and 23, the fruits of the Spirit, you know, love, joy, peace, patience, and we forget some, they come and it's not even for us, that's for other people. It's just, you know, that's the fruit that you give once you get to where you need to be and you go through those transformations as what God has for you. But change is painful.

Jeromy Johnson (50:16.588)
Yeah.

They just come. You're not chasing it. Yeah.

Chris Jones (50:32.869)
And it's not always comfortable, it's not always easy, but it definitely gets you to a better place. And I wouldn't give up any of it. There was moments like opening the Bible in the same place or going through the tomb. Like I said, I will never tell you God said this or that's not me. But for me, in my experience, that can't be taken from me. I know that was God personally working in my life, if that makes sense.

Jeromy Johnson (50:33.442)
It is.

Jeromy Johnson (50:41.678)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (50:58.52)
Yeah, yeah, it does, it does. You know, as you were talking about,

never wanting to go back where you know he said 401k good job at the box you know all this stuff it almost reminded me of Jesus temptations where he was just preparing for his that that life of ministry and then he was tempted three times and there's almost like okay would you go back would you if i can give you a 401k would you would you let this go Jesus if i can give you your marriage back would you let this go if i can give you the kingdoms of the world Chris

Chris Jones (51:17.799)
Bye.

Jeromy Johnson (51:37.705)
would you go back? And you're like, no. And I think that's the power of the temptation is it wasn't even like, they knew Jesus wasn't gonna go back, but it was almost like just that proving ground of how much you've changed, how much you've grown, that all these things, even the whole world, Chris, could be yours. Would you go back?

Chris Jones (51:50.641)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Jones (51:57.116)
Right. Of course, absolutely not. Are you kidding? You know, there's no amount of money. There's no amount of success or anything else. You know, we live in a demigod culture and it's really backwards. We celebrate people that have been given to us that we look up to and we worship. And it's horrific because if they walk into any restaurant, they're eating for free. They're getting clothes for free.

Jeromy Johnson (52:01.101)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (52:26.087)
You know, people beg for them to come stay at their finest hotels for free, just so they can say they stayed there. But they're walking over the homeless to do it. They're walking past the hungry to do it. It's, we got things backwards. You know, it's about prioritizing, because what you put as your number one priority in life, whether we know it or not, is your God, because that's what you're going to sacrifice everything for to get. So, I mean, I could go back now.

Jeromy Johnson (52:32.247)
Mm-hmm.

Chris Jones (52:54.447)
and I could sacrifice everything to get money and it would totally take me off my path. And when I achieve that, I'm going to find that it's barren and it's waste and it's empty. know, there's the moment where Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader, he takes off a helmet and he says, let me see you. It's at that moment we realize that Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker were both on their hero's journey. Darth just took a wrong turn.

Jeromy Johnson (53:04.226)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (53:10.958)
You

Yeah.

Chris Jones (53:22.683)
And in his moment of redemption, Luke gets to see the demigod, the guy with all the power, the guy that had all the influence, that had this veneer of power. As he takes the helmet off, he realizes inside how much death and disease and weakness and how sick and how lonely it is in there. know, Luke realizes that what goes on internally in us when we get off path, and that's what I was experiencing, you know.

Jeromy Johnson (53:43.426)
Hmm. Hmm. So true.

Jeromy Johnson (53:51.011)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (53:51.654)
As you go further in life, you can still get to your path. There might be some pain involved. You might have to go over a mountain. You might have to go through some really tough terrain. You can still get there and there's redemption, but time isn't, you know, you have only so much time. It's our most valuable resource, whether we know it or not. So if you spend it like it's nothing, pursuing money or becoming a demigod or however you want to say it. The good stuff in life.

is on your path. The sooner you get to it, the sooner you get to real life and what it is, the Zoe. You know what I mean? The eternal life, as the lawyer says in the Good Samaritan, a life that has no beginning, no ending, it's always been, it will always be, it predates time itself because it's not ours by the normal process. It comes from God outside the universe and He sent it with His Son that we might have it.

Jeromy Johnson (54:30.902)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (54:50.36)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (54:50.521)
So, you know, if you want to get to that, you've got to give up what I call the serpent's venom, which is pride, because pride makes you put what you want above everything else. I mean, well, think about it. That's what got Eve. How did the serpent get Eve to take it? You know, it was pride. You'll be like God. Don't you want to be like God? Well, yeah, I do. But we don't understand when we're pushing for that. That's when death starts happening.

Jeromy Johnson (54:58.68)
Hmm. true.

Chris Jones (55:19.783)
That's when we internally start crumbling and rotting and breaking down like we've seen with Darth Vader. And that's what happened with Adam and Eve. So I call it the serpent's venom. It's very deceiving because you want what you want. I want money. I want wealth. I want what I want. But the truth is if you'll find your path and find your way into the garden of Gethsemane, you'll find life. And that's what Jesus was saying. Deny yourself. If you give up your life, I'll give you a real life. And that's what the whole thing is.

Jeromy Johnson (55:20.332)
Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (55:25.987)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (55:45.057)
Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's tricky, I mean it's beautiful that you're sharing all this, Chris, and I thank you so much for sharing your story. And it's tricky because those same verses, you know, deny yourself, give up your life, is a lot of Christians then take that and like they just create self abuse. Like they just abuse themselves and they get rid of all boundaries. that's what's being said.

Chris Jones (56:10.247)
Yeah, yeah. And that's not what it should be. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (56:18.209)
There's this self-health that needs to be in place. You need to love yourself, but it doesn't come from a place of ... We think we're the center of the universe, right? But God, did you look at our lifespan in comparison to the life of the Earth or even the life of the universe, and it's so minuscule. We're like little tiny ants, and smaller than ants, and we just think we're so self-important, and that everything revolves around us. I think that's that pride you were talking about. I'm Chris Jones.

Chris Jones (56:23.783)
Yes.

Chris Jones (56:36.401)
Right.

Chris Jones (56:43.367)
Yeah.

That's exactly what it is.

Jeromy Johnson (56:48.469)
I can do anything, you know? And now you're... Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Jones (56:50.429)
Put my throne above everyone else's, up with God's. Yeah. But you know what? That's the hero's journey. When we hear the hero's journey, we always think it's about the hero. But the hero in that story always has to go to the cave and transform and die to self or become something different. And ultimately what they do is they go back and they serve humanity. The hero's journey isn't about the hero. It's about humanity.

Jeromy Johnson (57:15.436)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (57:17.723)
It's always been about humanity. It's how we save humanity. It's how we save us. So I think what the church has done really good is control and contrive scriptures to set us up to be controlled and be manipulated. And I'm not trying to be overly throwing rocks here, but if you read those scriptures in context, you realize it's not about hurting yourself. It's not about, you know, Jesus was a good steward.

Jeromy Johnson (57:20.875)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (57:47.42)
And way he said to love, like the Good Samaritan is, is to love others as you would yourself. That's the mark of a disciple, but as in good stewardship, a good steward says, if you're hungry, then you need to go feed yourself. Like Jeremy, if you're hungry, we'll go take care of it. But now if you can't take care of it, Jeremy, your hunger becomes my hunger. And I need to make sure you get fed. If you're sick, I need to make sure you get to the doctor. If you can't take care of it, you know, it's that kind of love. It's stewardship.

Jeromy Johnson (58:10.476)
Hmm.

Jeromy Johnson (58:15.148)
Yeah. Hmm.

Chris Jones (58:17.775)
And so much of it is we hear doormat. It has nothing to do with doormat. It has everything to do with stewardship. But if you do that for me, we're all taking care of each other and we're healing humanity by doing that in community. Yeah.

Jeromy Johnson (58:31.852)
Yeah. Yeah. Chris, I appreciate that you have started giving your voice out there to the world through spiritual hot sauce. it's a, it's a, think yours is an important voice. Everyone's voice is important and I think everybody should have.

Chris Jones (58:42.344)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (58:47.624)
Yes.

Jeromy Johnson (58:50.44)
something that they can give themselves back out to the world. Thank you for sharing your heart, thank you for sharing your story, Chris. I know that that is very intimate and I don't take that for granted. What's one thing that you want to leave our listeners with? What would you want them to carry with them after this conversation?

Chris Jones (59:10.835)
I would tell you, because I believe you have a lot of people that's in deconstruction or evangelical or evolution, never judge the moon based on the fingers that point at it, or you will miss the beauty of the moon.

I would tell you there is something beautiful in Christ. I'm getting ready to do an episode on somebody that read the Scriptures that had not been influenced or heard religion. There was no influence. It was just a pure reading and understanding of the Scriptures and what they did with it. It's amazing. It's amazing what they did with it because they had a different understanding. What I would say is, don't be afraid of God. God loves you.

Jeromy Johnson (59:50.168)
Hmm.

Chris Jones (59:57.447)
Push in with God. Get that one-on-one relationship with Him, and everything will be okay.

Jeromy Johnson (01:00:08.27)
Yeah.

Chris Jones (01:00:09.085)
Who's love?

Jeromy Johnson (01:00:11.534)
Chris, thank you, man. I appreciate you. I'm glad we're friends.

Chris Jones (01:00:13.245)
Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on today. I appreciate it.

Jeromy Johnson (01:00:19.128)
Yeah, all right, buddy.