00:00:00 Del Burnett: It is a challenge to be on a journey of discovery. You are never going to be at home and in some ways, and there's going to be people who are always going to remind you of that. Making peace with that is a part of the journey. I think in some ways, if if our theology is held more lightly, we can find a way into this new world that is happening around us without losing anything of what we think is important.

00:00:29 Jeromy Johnson: Let me introduce you to the man who ruined my faith in the best possible way. For years, I thought the problem was me. I wasn't believing hard enough, trusting enough. But then along came Dale, brunette. Sometimes the thing getting in the way of God is our theology about God. In this conversation, we talk about doubt, dark nights of the soul, and what happens when the faith you inherited begins to crack. I'm your host, Jeremy Johnson, and you're listening to sweaty Grace. Hey everyone. Welcome. I am so excited and grateful that a friend of mine, Dale Burnett, is able to hop on. Dale and I go way back. He was actually my senior pastor at Journey Church Presbyterian Church here in Folsom, and he was the guy who hired me all the way from Texas to come back to California to be their youth pastor, associate pastor at the church. Yeah, we just developed a pretty good relationship during that. Was it like two years? Del two or three years, I'm going to say.

00:01:31 Del Burnett: About two or three, I think something like that.

00:01:33 Jeromy Johnson: Dale. Welcome man. Glad you can join us.

00:01:35 Del Burnett: Thank you. Good to be with you.

00:01:37 Jeromy Johnson: When you had the um, they call them search committees for those that aren't familiar with how, uh, basically hiring teams work in churches, they call them search committees and they search the universe. They searched the world for the most ideal candidate. And you guys found me. And that was awesome. But do you remember, uh, I was at Susan's house, and, uh, do you remember what you served me? The what? Liquid you. You made sure was there.

00:02:00 Del Burnett: Uh, probably wine, but I don't know.

00:02:04 Jeromy Johnson: It was red wine. And I remember you saying. I remember you saying, hey, Susan, make sure there's some red wine, because Jeremy's a evangelical, and we just want to make sure that he's okay with being a little bit loose and that he's he's cool with drinking.

00:02:18 Del Burnett: Had to test you out. I mean, I wasn't sure how this was going to work. Yeah. Yeah.

00:02:22 Jeromy Johnson: Exactly. So in honor of that, I went a little heavier.

00:02:25 Del Burnett: Good for you.

00:02:26 Jeromy Johnson: I have some bourbon here with me, and I think I just saw a tall glass of red wine. So we're going to be sipping.

00:02:31 Del Burnett: I got I got a Cabernet here. So good.

00:02:34 Jeromy Johnson: I would say you're the person that I blame in the best way for messing with my theology. I was an evangelical. I came into a PC, USA Presbyterian Church. Was there, was there intentionality behind kind of stretching my theology, as it were?

00:02:51 Del Burnett: Yeah, I guess that's part of it. I think another part of it was you. You brought a lot of energy and I could sense there was, um, there was a journey going on within you because, um, one of the things that I had discovered over my years of being a lead pastor had a staff is that the, the only poor hires I've ever made are people who are just perfectly fitted for the job. And they last about a year and then they go or I invite them to go. And I learned over the period of time is that I want to look at people who are, who are traveling, who aren't trying to settle down and find some safe place in a negative way, but to I could tell just in the early conversations with you, it's not all wrapped up tight. There's not a bow on that theology. Um, he's he's coming to us. Uh.

00:03:39 Jeromy Johnson: There still isn't. Yeah.

00:03:41 Del Burnett: A kind of sense maybe coming to us a little a little scarred up, a bit. And I think that there's two things. One is that I at Jury Church, we, even though we were Presbyterian and I spent my whole career in the Presbyterian Church and I, I love its theology and I love so much about it. But at the same time, um, I've always been an ecumenical person when it comes to staff. I want people to come in to have different perspectives because if we're going to empower a congregation to think differently, we need to have people who think differently and the leadership roles. Yeah. And so, um, kind of intuitively knowing you were going to bring more than skill as a youth pastor, that you were going to be bringing a perspective on openness and, and evolving and exploring. And, uh, you know, I invited you to join Germany Church. Duh. You know, it's like the whole idea of that congregation was that we had been fulsome Presbyterian church for nine years. And, uh, but when we made the name change, the purpose was, is that the oldest metaphor for faith and Scripture? Is God coming to Abraham and saying, hey, there's a land I want you to show you, so let's go.

00:04:49 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:04:49 Del Burnett: So that was kind of the idea. I just sensed intuitively that you were on that journey and that you would fit well and you did that. Plus, I wanted to create a place at Journey Church that was welcoming, accepting, respectful, and at the same time excited about what God was doing in and through us in the town. Yeah, that's the story.

00:05:10 Jeromy Johnson: I remember our staff meeting. So what was very unique about what you did, and I imagine some people didn't like it as much as I did. But you, you had us read a book together. Not like out loud. We're all just sitting there reading. But we had the week to read a chapter. And the first, I don't know, fifteen, twenty minutes of that staff meeting, we would just engage with that book. I remember what that first book was when I came in. In fact, I think I have it. Yeah, I just unpacked some of my books and it was this guy right here. Oh, yeah.

00:05:39 Del Burnett: Kirsten.

00:05:40 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, yeah. By Brian McLaren. And that was my intro to where you were. You were taking us theologically. And as I look at this book, every third line is underlined. I was just engaged so much. And so I don't know if I've ever said this, but I just want to say thank you for introducing me to that. It really was life changing that those years with you. And I think it just put me on the right trajectory. So thank you.

00:06:06 Del Burnett: Oh, well. Good. I'm glad McLaren helped. I don't know, I wouldn't, but he did. And I'm staying with you. I mean, I rented those books probably a year before you got there. And it was a trilogy that he put together, and it was kind of his first venture out into kind of exploring this more open ended theology that he is very much into now. I remember reading it, I was like, my soul just sucked it in because it was like, oh my God, somebody else is out there like me in a role of leadership. Tired of doing the same old stuff and longing for something that's rich and full. And for me, I've always been attracted to those in the margins. And, um, sadly, congregations tend not to be that way. And so having somebody like McLaren tell those stories. Yeah, it was great. And then from there it was I mean, I've read I think everything McLaren's done.

00:06:58 Jeromy Johnson: So it sounds like for you he, he kind of was that same person where what you were thinking and asking and questioning, he was just putting words to it. Now you said you spent most of your career in PC USA, which is a Presbyterian church, USA, probably the more liberal branch, would you say the Presbyterian Church?

00:07:16 Del Burnett: We're we're the liberal ones.

00:07:18 Jeromy Johnson: But you you didn't begin there, did you? You didn't begin as a liberal wing. You began more evangelical. Correct.

00:07:25 Del Burnett: Um, even beyond that, I began as a Pentecostal kid. Okay. Oftentimes Pentecostal folks are categorized, you know, there's the weepers and there's the jumpers. And I was in a, in a jumper church, but I was a weeper person. So I never.

00:07:37 Jeromy Johnson: Really say you were not a jumper.

00:07:39 Del Burnett: No, no, that was not my thing. Um, you know, you put me on a playing field. That's a whole other thing. I'll hit you. But that was the beginning of my journey, and it really it was one of those things that I. I'm thankful for that experience. I'm thankful that. And I've carried with me, um, a high view of the spirit. Uh, even when I became a Presbyterian and all of the reformed theology that comes with that, which, you know, I very much appreciated, it's who I, it's part of who I am. I'm glad I had it because one of the reasons I was able to be on the journey and I was always accompanied by the spirit, um, even in those places where I was wondering what was going on from my Pentecostal tradition, I went to a Christian college university in Southern California.

00:08:24 Jeromy Johnson: But um, went to a Pentecostal college.

00:08:26 Del Burnett: And well, no, I went to a zoo specific, so I didn't, um.

00:08:29 Jeromy Johnson: Okay.

00:08:29 Del Burnett: There was about a half a dozen of us on campus in those days who were out of the charismatic Pentecostal tradition. So we were kind of most of the ones who were there were coming out of Calvary Chapel because it was just becoming big at that point in time. By the way, you know, I'm talking about prehistoric time here. So, um, we're, we're back to the seventies and, uh, yeah, I know. Wow. That's amazing. But, um, first off, I mean, going to Azusa Pacific at the time, it had fifty five denominations or traditions on its campus.

00:09:00 Jeromy Johnson: Oh, really? Wow.

00:09:01 Del Burnett: So it was like.

00:09:01 Jeromy Johnson: Wow, that's amazing.

00:09:02 Del Burnett: Yeah. I was bumping into all kinds of people and learning all kinds of stuff prior to going. And here's the last little piece of this. I was a part of the Pentecostal tradition until through my senior year in high school. But I started asking questions particularly about the war in Vietnam, uh, about issues of race. Just wasn't the sort of thing I was supposed to be asking, desperately wanting to deepen my faith, but just couldn't get anybody to listen to me. I was the president of the youth group. Eventually, what they did is just disbanded the youth group until I kind of woke up to the fact that that was because of me. And so that started my journey.

00:09:35 Jeromy Johnson: Good job. You you destroyed a youth group.

00:09:37 Del Burnett: Yeah. Azusa became my spiritual home in many ways. It became the first church I ever really knew. That was formative. Welcoming, respectful, challenging, and relevant. Pentecostalism back in those days, and by large measure at least, my experience of it was how to be as different from everybody else as you possibly can be. How to be, as you know, the old thing. How to be so heavenly minded that you're no earthly good. I discovered Azusa, this idea that, man, this faith thing is supposed to be working. That was it just lit me up. From that point on, my life was never the same.

00:10:13 Jeromy Johnson: I want to touch on something that you said there. What's cool is each generation has those like you don't ask those questions, but they're different questions. You weren't allowed to ask about the Vietnam War. You weren't allowed to ask about civil rights, blacklisted questions that you're not allowed to ask. Change.

00:10:29 Del Burnett: It is a challenge to be on a journey of discovery. You are never going to be at home. And in some ways, and there's going to be people who are always going to remind you of that. Making peace with that is a part of the journey. After Azusa, I moved to Southern California and there was this guy named John Wimber, who was the associate pastor at Yorba Linda Friends Church that I was attending and eventually got my wife and I met there and we got married, and John was the associate. We were the part. We were the beginning of what ended up being the vineyard. Initially, it was Calvary Chapel, Yorba Linda, but.

00:11:04 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah, very familiar vineyard.

00:11:06 Del Burnett: Yeah. After Sunday night service, we'd go across the street to one of the people's houses and we'd about fifty to seventy five of us all sitting on the floor and John Wimber playing piano and leading us to worship songs. I don't know if you're familiar with Ted Lasso. Yeah. And Keely Jones, the character Keely Jones. She's the one who says, I'm famous for being famous. Well, I'm famous for almost being in the right place at the right time. Because, I mean.

00:11:31 Jeromy Johnson: Looking back, if you just stuck with John Wimber, I mean, your life could have been way different.

00:11:35 Del Burnett: Reality was that when that that situation happened, um, I was on staff at Yorba Linda friends, um, most of the college fellowship that I was overseeing went with the new church, with the vineyard church or the Calvary Chapel. And John said, hey, come on with us. We'd love to have you on board. By that point, I had, I'd had enough of that experience and I wanted some more stability.

00:11:55 Jeromy Johnson: You grew up with that. So that wasn't new and fresh to you. Or some of these people were probably coming from more of a maybe evangelical space. This is like, this is amazing.

00:12:03 Del Burnett: Yeah. There was a lot of demonstrative stuff that they were seeking that while I didn't, I don't devalue it. It just isn't for me. And I was much more interested in how do we make this faith real for, for people on the margins of people in the world that don't go to church, don't understand the, you know, the sequencing of the beliefs and all that kind of stuff. By that point, I was at Fuller Seminary and discovered the press during church through faculty and students. I started when I started at Fuller, I was a Quaker, but by the time I was two years in, I had realized I found my home in the church and I came into it still with a lot of evangelical leanings and understandings and was accepted. And I got to tell you, that was first for me because I never felt like I belonged anywhere. Maybe a little bit of D'Souza, but that was the beginning of me going, wow, this could be it could be a home.

00:12:54 Jeromy Johnson: So was this kind of like before? Um, for the evangelical takeover of Christianity where kind of like those more mainline denominations were a little bit more bigger, a little more prominent, a little less, um, old.

00:13:07 Del Burnett: Yeah, it was, it was definitely the eighties, which was the, you know, of course, that was the concerted effort of the moral majority, basically what was able to happen there through, I think, media ignorance and laziness is that evangelicalism was co-opted by fundamentalists. Um, who, who were marked.

00:13:26 Jeromy Johnson: What was it before that?

00:13:27 Del Burnett: Evangelical when I mean, I the evangelical movement I was a part of had Jim Wallis and, and sojourners community and the other side and a lot of radical folk who were saying, we need to be more intentional about social justice, compassion, those sorts of things. So from the nineteen eighties on, that started to shift. And the media, and I would just say because they were lazy and they didn't listen to those of us on the which at the time was probably the majority of evangelicals who were much more evangelistic, much more transformational in our understanding, much less about rigid rules and and certainly much less about who's in and who's out. It doesn't mean that there weren't concerns there. And I don't mean to overstate that.

00:14:12 Jeromy Johnson: Less about drawing lines and more about that more social aspect. And the more just how can we be a positive presence in this world?

00:14:21 Del Burnett: And this is where Wimber and Vineyard had some really good influence, along with some zany stuff. What I always loved about John and what was that? He really wanted to focus on Christ, the center of one's soul versus the boundaries of one's belief. And quite frankly, evangelicalism since the eighties has been all about boundaries and beliefs. And of course, we see it today in all that's going on around us with with another variation of it that is basically about turning the gospel upside down. I mean, we have a couple of major jobs as Christians, and one of them is welcoming the sojourners. Welcoming the stranger and welcoming the immigrant. Why? Because God is, as God says, to Old Testament people of God. Because that's who you were. Yeah. And somehow we've got that turned upside down. And it's all about power and rules and control and all that. That all began in the eighties. Now look back at that season of my life and go, man, once again, I felt like I was just out of place with everything.

00:15:19 Jeromy Johnson: Well, that kind of makes sense. You have a theologian's presence, but your heart is just very wide and very open. And I've always seen that about you. You know, I was born in seventy five. That evangelicalism was all that I've ever known was from the eighties on. I think that's why I am where I am because I just like this just doesn't seem right. This just doesn't seem to fit with the gospel, doesn't seem to fit with Jesus. It has to be more to it. And now, like the whole political arm of it. You talk about the temptations of Jesus where he's like, hey, I'll give you, you know, turn this stone into a piece of bread or whatever. Then the third one's like, I will give you all the kingdoms of the world. And Jesus is like, no. And even I, I will give you all the kingdoms of the world. Okay. What do I have to do? What's what part of my soul do I have to sell? And they've, they've really failed. I guess that temptation.

00:16:05 Del Burnett: Well, continue. The idea of the journey is that about four or five years into ministry, I hit a wall. I was ordained Presbyterian. I had, uh, basically used all my seminary training and all the classwork I'd done up to that point. I was like going, what the heck is next?

00:16:22 Jeromy Johnson: I've taught everything I know.

00:16:24 Del Burnett: Yeah, exactly. And in the process of that I encountered was the church of the Savior in Washington, DC and Elizabeth O'Connor. That church was a very dynamic house church sort of version of Christianity that I just loved. A high commitment, high desire. But one of the things that I loved about it is that they had a mantra, and that was J I j o.

00:16:44 Jeromy Johnson: J I.

00:16:45 Del Burnett: J journey inward, journey outward. If you don't have a journey inward, your journey outward is going to fail you. And if you if you don't have a journey, outward, journey inward is going to become ingrown and and less than valuable.

00:16:57 Jeromy Johnson: Interesting. That's beautiful.

00:16:59 Del Burnett: That began the last major phase of my life, which has been the contemplative piece of that. Once again rooted in, to some degree in Presbyterianism because of the Celtic tradition that I've adopted and actually is my tradition as a Scotch-Irish person. But the idea of adopting that sort of pilgrimage vision or journey or understanding of your life, you know, enjoy the places where you are is my football coach used to say, be where your feet are. But then also realize that there's a big world out there, and that in that world is the presence of God and the mystery of God in ways that just can take your breath away. Um, if you're willing to, to venture out there and that there have been many times I was, I was on a journey, but it wasn't because I was just, uh, mystically called and everything was wonderful. I love to say that God just was messing with me, put me in situations that I could not, I could not manage on my own. And oftentimes that journey leads through depression, leads through doubt, leads through all sorts of, you know, the dark night of the soul. Yeah. But I gotta tell you, I am so thankful where I am, and yet I am so, I'm so thankful of the journey I've been on, which is bizarre at best. And, but also in the process of that, I've encountered just some amazing people that have had such a great impact on my life. Yeah. Whether I've had an impact on others, I sometimes wonder you have. I do know that when you open yourself up to that sort of open understanding of what God's at work in, in our world. Oh my God. All of a sudden everything becomes so much more dynamic, so much more rich, and the texture is so much more intense than just, you know, sticking within the boundaries of whatever tradition you're in. Yeah. Um, and being safe and comfortable.

00:18:53 Jeromy Johnson: It sounds like you're saying, and I want to ask you like there really is no separation between God in this world. There isn't this other. It's God's part of it. God's in it and around it. How do we stay grounded to that with all the craziness that that happens and is going on?

00:19:07 Del Burnett: Um, yeah, it's a, it's a challenge. When I left Journey Church, I spent a year studying with Jesuits at the Jesuit School of Theology in Berkeley. Um, the other piece of this thing is I am presently now, over the last decade, I've been a Benedictine oblate.

00:19:20 Jeromy Johnson: Oh, I didn't know that.

00:19:21 Del Burnett: And so what I found in in those traditions is kind of this larger arena that the lens. The lens is opened up so that you can see more. And of course, both of those traditions and the Catholic Church, one of his great gifts and strengths is that it's about the incarnation. We, we Protestants, we evangelicals, we talk a lot about theology. I don't know that we really live a whole lot of it because the incarnation, that's just not about Jesus and the cross and the resurrection, all that the incarnation is. Do we not believe that the presence of Christ is in everything around us and that God is at work? It isn't that God is that all creation is God, but God is in all of creation. Yeah. And in a, in a redemptive, dynamic, formative way, if we're willing to look at it, rather than, as I did too much of my early theology experience, try to manage God through my beliefs so that God was more reasonable to handle.

00:20:20 Jeromy Johnson: I think when you really start to wrestle with theology and what is Scripture really say and what's maybe a more generous or a slutty grace, He really started to see that God is not ours to manage. If God wants to save all, God's going to save all. There's going to be nothing that you or I are going to do with it. No matter how much we fight against that, no matter how much we. We hate that. Eventually, that love and that grace is going to just draw all men and all things and all creation is going to be restored. Not part of creation, not some of creation, not just the plot of land that America is on. All of creation is going to be restored. Have you had a dark night of the soul?

00:20:55 Del Burnett: I mean, just one.

00:21:00 Jeromy Johnson: We could start with one. We can start with one.

00:21:03 Del Burnett: Several. Yeah. I, uh, quite frankly, one of those moments was at Journey Church. I had. It was one of the fastest growing churches in our denomination. Uh, we had experienced marvelous stuff. People's lives were being changed. So many phenomenal things happening. But the problem was to succeed in that way, it wasn't required. But I allowed myself to lose my soul in the process of it. And when I came back from my sabbatical just prior, I think, before you came on board and kind of realizing I needed to live differently, that I had, um, I had lost myself in the process. I mean, to walk away from what Don and I thought to be our forever home, my forever job, our forever community. Wow. And yet, knowing I had to do it, and at the same time, trying to explain to my kids who weren't ready to leave, to my wife, who was like, well, okay, you know, I spent a year, six months, uh, over on Berkeley campus, uh, and coming home on weekends or Don would come over and try to check in with the kids about every other weekend. You know, there are a lot of train rides from, uh, Sacramento to Berkeley, where I was kind of wondering in a real gracious, overtly theological way, saying to God, what in the hell are you doing to me? And why is this? Why is this happening? You know, I was fat and happy. Just. Yeah, like, why did I have to wake up from all of that? And, and, uh, but in the process, I began to realize what God could sense and what God could see that I couldn't. Was that as way too many people, way too many clergy in that in that situation. When, when all the growth and great stuff's happening, they get lost and find themselves doing some things they never dreamed they would do? Yeah. Fortunately, I got out of that. That was one of those times. I've had many I had in college. Um, I had, uh, different ministry stops along the way where I just felt like, did I miss something? How did this and the comeback was always go deeper, you know, go deeper. Trust me. Listen to me. Follow me. I got a sneaky suspicion when Abraham and Sarah got to Canaan. And then God said to them. Here's the joke, Abe, I'm not giving you this land. Wanted you to see if you follow me. Your children will have the land, but not not you're not going to. Yeah, I think that's the way God works. I think we're invited on a journey and think we know what that means. And in the process, if we're willing to risk it, God invites us to a whole nother realm of life. Most people know the Tolkien stuff, but they haven't read The Hobbit. And my my favorite scene and scene really kind of describes my life is Bilbo sitting on the front porch of his house, and Gandalf comes by and says, hey, you want to go on a walk? You want to go on a journey? And Bilbo's thinking to himself, I'm happy in the Shire, what am I? Why? Why would I want to do that? But he does. And the world unfolds. I think that's the the motivation for allowing the Dark Knight to come to us, because I think many people encountered the Dark Knight, and then they run away from it as fast as they can, and they go back to whatever they knew. And sadly, too often become even more rigidly aligned with that, so that their life becomes less and less malleable and less and less open. There's this guy scan in Jesus. He's got his buddies together in the upper room. Um, they all go down to the garden and he's going to pray, and they keep falling asleep on him. And Jesus message to God at that night is, okay, pops. Is there any way this cup can pass me by? Because if there is, let's do that. And but eventually he says, but let it be. But let me be clear. It is not fun. It is not enjoyable. And unless you're lucky, you don't have a lot of people around you who are going to who are going to walk with you through that because they think you're blowing it.

00:24:56 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. And they're afraid a little bit too of like, where's, you know, where's del going to land after this, right? Like, is he going to snap? Well, I didn't know that. I knew a little bit about that with with journey church. So it almost sounds like, and I think this is true with a lot of pastors. When you have the church, you have the growth. You were one of the fastest growing in the whole denomination. And yet your soul, from what I heard, just felt empty. Like what was the cost of achieving that Once you're there. It's like, this isn't all that I thought I was going to be. But you had the courage to step away. You had the courage to, I guess, follow Gandalf on a journey.

00:25:32 Del Burnett: Back in the mid, mid, mid to late fifties. Walking away from a career and going back to seminary for a year to study ethics, there's not a real steep trajectory of success coming out of that. But but I needed to reclaim that part of my soul because Jerry was a marvelous church. Incredible people. It was one of the joys of my life to be to be the pastor there. But a part of the process was it was also one of the sixth or seventh most affluent zip codes in the entire country. Yeah. And, um, and that kind of affluence begins to wear down. At least it began to wear my desire to be a more justice, compassion oriented sort of church. And I think that's when I kind of woke up and realized the megachurch thing was my thing. And, uh, I needed to go back and remember and just rediscover what the gospel really is about. It's not about getting people to heaven. It's about bringing the reign of God to the earth. That's our thing. And I needed to learn that again because I had somehow lost that in the process.

00:26:37 Jeromy Johnson: So what is that grace look like now for you? When you think of the grace of God being extended, what does that does that look like?

00:26:44 Del Burnett: Uh, it's, uh, it's a wide open thing. For me, I went through a season, uh, in the Presbyterian church when it went through its decisions about ordination and, and, uh, what we would call full inclusion of gay and lesbian folk. Yep. I shifted from being one who I never, I never had a problem with the civil rights of LGBTQ people. They, they need to have all the rights we have. And that's why I never, never crossed my mind. It was the idea of ordination and the idea of of marriage within the church. Again, I had to confront that. And I started finding sources that were very helpful. Uh, helped me to update my understanding of the theology and the sociology of the era and awaken to, oh my gosh, this is an amazing story here, if we're willing to do that. For me, Grace is it isn't just the beginning of a salvation story. Grace is the energy that runs creation. It's the energy that enthuses good relationships. It's the energy that that empowers us to dream bigger things than we've ever done. I mean, there's nothing more ironic in my mind than for us to go through Martin Luther King Day in the country we live in today, with a major part of the evangelical camp misreading the texts so sadly and so vehemently and so destructively. And but to come back to Grace, it's like if we get caught up in the battle of fighting, that rather than trying to empower the energy of the universe around us, the energy of the spirit in and through us, I think would go the other direction. We're going to. We're going to fail. It doesn't mean that this is going to be easy. It doesn't mean that we're going to be successful. And it doesn't mean that there's. The tough thing for some people to have to swallow is that the United States isn't part of the Old Testament or New Testament. This absurdity that somehow we have an. We are exceptional. Um, we're only exceptional in our own minds.

00:28:42 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah. No, it's true because we we think God in America or some do. God in America are the same.

00:28:48 Del Burnett: So for me, grace is really it is a spiritual experience, but it's also a deep, I think, a deep energy. If we're if we're attuned to it. And I think in some ways, some of the craziness of the last decade has caused me to lean into that much more than I ever did before, because I have to if I'm left to my own devices, particularly the ethics and morals that I'm trying to live my life by, and then watch everything around me in opposition to that. You know, I could get lost pretty easily. But if I can, if I can have a sense that that God's reign is happening, it's happening gloriously in other places. We in the States, we think if it's not happening here, it's not happening anywhere. Our arrogance is kind of off the charts when it comes to that sort of stuff.

00:29:38 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:29:39 Del Burnett: But I'm always amazed with Euro-Americans. Do we not understand that we're the we're the late arrivers in the gospel story? Yeah. That this faith that we claim started with brown people started in Palestine. I mean, we were the last to get this story. And somehow we think we're the end all, be all. And that's where we come back to the idea of, so how do we listen to to grace that comes to us from other traditions, other languages right now? I'm very much being influenced by indigenous spirituality because these are people who have maintained vital faith, traditions and stories and beliefs while they had been systematically crushed. I think we have an enormous amount to learn from them by just listening to their wisdom, their guidance. So again, that's back to this whole thing, is that grace is not a theological concept. It is not a soteriological concept alone. It is an empowering understanding of how we are to live our days and function in our world.

00:30:46 Jeromy Johnson: And what does that look like with God's kingdom and grace being expressed right now? Because I, I'm with you like if I just keep chasing the rabbit, I'll be chasing rabbits all day long. This is my stress level is going to go up. I'm going to be exhausted. And I think sometimes it's like what you said before, like, be where your feet are. Look down. Where are your feet? What's around you right now? What's your world like right now? What are some ways that you can be a part of God's kingdom and God's grace in your sphere of influence? And I think that's the biggest downfall of this technology age in the social media, age is everything that's happening everywhere. We get wrapped up in it, and I think we lose our place in space of where we're at now.

00:31:29 Del Burnett: I mean, for me, some of the very basics of it, I mean, the notion that somehow people of color don't belong here.

00:31:36 Jeromy Johnson: I it's gross.

00:31:37 Del Burnett: I want to come back to going, do you not know who Native Americans were? Once again, we we're the late arrivers and we're so damn arrogant that we think we're the center of the universe. Anybody who says diversity is not helpful in any level, be IT management, professional, whatever. They're just being stupid. You know, why did I ask you on the staff at Journey Church? Because you weren't like everybody else.

00:32:04 Jeromy Johnson: Amen.

00:32:04 Del Burnett: Because I needed to see. You know, I needed to hear your voice. And one of the things I always I would say to my staff is that everybody's got a voice here. You know, we can argue and debate and all that sort of stuff. Um, when we leave this room, we need to be as unified as we possibly can be. But the joy, the genius of the Kingdom of God is that we are a diverse family.

00:32:24 Jeromy Johnson: Yes.

00:32:26 Del Burnett: The the old understanding of development is that, you know, you go from dependence to independence. And that's that's maturity. And maturity isn't independence, that's middle school. That's like, nobody can tell me what to do. I'm going to do what I want to do and everything about anything you ask me to do, I'm not going to do blah, blah, blah.

00:32:45 Jeromy Johnson: Yeah.

00:32:46 Del Burnett: The true mark of maturity is interdependence that I can recognize that I have a perspective that I'm pretty comfortable with, but I am blind to a whole lot of other stuff. And the more I can get people around me who have different perspectives, the better chance I have of actually discerning what God's Spirit and what God's will might be in a given time or situation. Yeah, Because the old idea of, you know, the pastor going to the mountaintop and coming back with a vision from God. I don't buy it. I don't buy it. I don't see it in Scripture. I'm the Son of God came to earth and he gathered around him twelve dudes who were about as diverse as you possibly could be. If God Himself incarnate gave us that model, what are we supposed to be doing with how we live our lives, how we see our world? And yeah, I want my echo chamber folk. And I think that's sad.

00:33:44 Jeromy Johnson: It is. And you know, you look at the church and we just want this one size that fits all theology, right? Especially with evangelical, like you are defined by what you believe. You're literally saved by what you believe, by definition of what of that? And it's like ground beef that's all packaged up and chopped up and cellophane up and sold to you with a rubber stamp on it. Like, here you go. But the early church, it was just this diversity of belief and faith. And there wasn't this unified thing until Constantine came along, but there wasn't this unified thing. You know what? I've heard of a church up in Reno, but it's a church that anyone can can sign up to teach. If you want to teach, here's a topic. And if you want to take it, then you take it and and they're okay with that. Like, I know some people, some pastors like, whoa, we can't do that. We can't do that.

00:34:35 Del Burnett: Soon as you say that, I've got my knee jerk.

00:34:37 Jeromy Johnson: Like I've seen this. But again, like is, is that, is that worth the risk? And they're saying, yes, the, the fruit of that is worth the risk. And if we're not defined by our belief or if we're not defined by our theology and we're defined by our love, we're defined by our, our oneness, then, all right, let's act that way. Have you walked people through deconstruction in your journeys?

00:35:03 Del Burnett: I don't know that I've done it intentionally. I've certainly been a part of the process. Now that I'm retired, I joke about I'm the sage at the gate. Um, I'm also a spiritual director. So part of that is to is to stay within the language and the words of the person I'm working with to be able to, to help them unpack what's God doing in their life? Where is where is the grace? Where is that energy? Where is that? Where is it flowing to? And how do I become a part of that? Well, there was a time in my life I would have told everybody how to do that. And thank God very few people listened to me back in those days. But but now it's like, oh, I don't know. I just find out, I understand and I've, I've value the notion of deconstruction. I think a deeper metaphor for me that doesn't preclude deconstruction, but it's the metaphor of, of incarnation, which is how do we create a greater awareness of the unique Spirit of God at work within us and what we have to bring to the, to the mix? So yeah, so spiritual director, I've been doing that for a while. And, and, um, I'm also a kind of a clergy coach in some ways that's, that's a bit more professional than, but it's the same thing kind of helping people find their way. And the rest of it is just kind of through friendships, conversation. I mean, I have feels it feels a little, um, uncomfortable, but I had a history, like with you of no strategy. You know, when I met you, I didn't go, okay, I'm gonna kick his butt in two years and he's gonna, you know, it's just it was, but I, I, I just sense.

00:36:39 Jeromy Johnson: You're listening to the spirit. Yeah.

00:36:41 Del Burnett: And I, I'm, I guess I have a high intuitive sense that I, I can pick up, I can, I can pick up the, the low notes in somebody's life that they don't even hear. And I have to be very careful because I, I, I don't want to work my agenda on anyone, but to just invite them to listen to that and to, and to let that take them someplace. And, and I think the most important piece is just letting people realize, and this is going to sound really harsh and I'm overstating it, but not much. Is that God really doesn't write theology. Humans write theology, and our theology that we write is we encounter God in some dramatic way. And theology is basically, what the hell was that all about? And then he created a doctrine around that. And then we create rigid rules around that, and then we start kicking people out because of that, when in fact it would be much wiser for us to develop theology. We need to understand what is it God doing in our in our world, in our life and in this moment? But we hold that with open hands. We hold it lightly.

00:37:45 Jeromy Johnson: It could have just been a one off. Yeah, absolutely. It could have been just like, this is what Dale and Jeremy needed at this point in their life, and it won't apply to anyone else. And like I really.

00:37:56 Del Burnett: Well, I still remember that time we're at the at the pub and you, you invited me. I was, I think it was a Jesuit at the time. He invited me to join you guys and, and I wasn't quite sure what I was there. I didn't know anybody but you and, and you introduced me by saying, yo, this is the guy that messed up my life. And I'm like, going, I, I had no idea that I had done that. And yet I, I guess I did when you said I thought, yeah, you're right. Because clearly by that point you were on the journey as well. I mean, you were much more overt and much more, you know, your situation had changed during church had changed. And what I love about reconnecting is that I always wonder, because I have had this list of folks in my life that I sense God was doing stuff with them in and through our relationship. And I've often wondered, so what? What happened with that? Did you see what's going on now? It's it is a confirmation that I wasn't just a one off thing, although it was one offish in some way. But, um, there are two bilbos who, uh, who were on a journey and bumped into each other.

00:38:56 Jeromy Johnson: That's I remember sharing with you, like, I think in the middle of it because, you know, my evangelical foundations, right, were really like, it was just showing the cracks. And once you start putting the water in there, it just starts eroding it and eroding it. And you're taught from a young age like, this is the truth. This is the foundation and this is God. And if you leave this, you're going down a slippery slope into hell. And and so when that starts crumbling, your whole world, your whole identity, your whole faith just feels like it's being destroyed. And I remember talking to you about that and it was like, but del, you know, what I found was like, there's a much like God was just still there. Like it didn't affect God at all. Yeah. It was like I was just on this little rock that God was holding up in his hands. And I'm like, I'm standing on this little pebble. My pebble shatters. I'm like, ah. And he's like, okay, are you done? Yeah, yeah. When that pebble is everything, like it's scary as all hell. But then you realize that God was so much bigger and is so much bigger and so much more gracious and so much more loving than ever imaginable. And like, like you said, not everything is God, but God is in everything. And even even physics now is discovering this at a new level. They just keep going deeper and deeper and deeper. And there's this energy that pervades everything and they can't explain it. Is that spirit? Is that God is that. It's our minds trying to look in this cracked mirror that we see dimly and trying to make sense of this stuff.

00:40:26 Del Burnett: Yeah. When you think about quantum physics and what the, you know, the whole notion of maybe the universe does have a conscious ness to it. I gotta tell you, there's very little, uh, American theology that is going to handle that very well. Um, it's not, it's not going to work or it's, they're going to force it working and really mess the whole thing up. But got a book called Quantum Sayings of Jesus. It's, you know, the gospel of Thomas. And I mean, I'm, I'm amazed. I'm just.

00:40:53 Jeromy Johnson: Mesmerized by the gospel.

00:40:55 Del Burnett: You know?

00:40:56 Jeromy Johnson: Come on.

00:40:56 Del Burnett: Brother. Yeah, I know, I know that one.

00:40:58 Jeromy Johnson: Was just sanctions. Yeah.

00:41:00 Del Burnett: Yeah, this will be bumped out of here.

00:41:02 Jeromy Johnson: No it.

00:41:02 Del Burnett: Won't. But just that the whole notion of of looking at the gospel Thomas, through the lens of the whole idea of quantum physics. It's an amazing sort of thing. I think in some ways, if if our theology is held more lightly, we can find a way into this new world that is happening around us without losing anything of what we think is important. But if we cling to rigid enlightenment theology, that was marvelous in its day, which is formed my life and my journey in so many ways, but doesn't carry the freight in quite the way it did before. No, because it was from a different era. And to be able to to move into a new time, especially with when you think about quantum physics and everything connected to that, of just kind of going, wow, maybe we had misunderstood the whole thing all along, or at least we haven't understood it as fully as, as is unfolding today.

00:42:04 Jeromy Johnson: But it really gives new meaning to Christ is all and is in all. Yes, absolutely. And I think that's the beauty of, as you put it, like the incarnation, as you discover, as you start moving forward, is you start looking at these old scriptures that you've read your whole life, and you take this lens off and you put a different lens on, and they just say something completely different. And it's the same scripture, right? It's the same translations. It's the same everything. Nothing's changed except for the lens. Odell I love it, dude. As we wrap up, kind of know a little bit about the audience. Some, some people are halfway dismantled in their faith. Some are fully right, and they're just trying to find their place back. They're trying to find where they fit. Others are pastors that are really struggling with where they're at. Others are pastors who, you know, like myself. And then you have X evangelicals. You have people that are just really, really starting to question that faith, not as a pastor, but as just as a fellow traveler. For the person listening right now who feels like maybe their theology's cracked open. Maybe their their certainty is gone. They might be thinking my broken beyond repair. What would you want them to hear about God? And maybe about the freedom of the other side of asking better questions. Anyway, just the last word. You have it.

00:43:20 Del Burnett: Okay. Well, um. So it's dangerous.

00:43:23 Jeromy Johnson: Just don't die. Don't die right after this. Don't feel really bad. Like Bill's last word?

00:43:28 Del Burnett: Yeah, my last phrase. Um, I think the first thing I would say is that back to that idea that, you know, God doesn't write theology. God encounters us and we try to figure that out. I think the most important thing for anyone in the journey of deconstructing or awakening is this is a journey that we are not in control of. This is a journey of redemption, of wholeness, of healing, of transformation that is being in many ways enthused and empowered by the Holy Spirit, by God working within us. And I'm going to say this, and I know it's going to be difficult for some folks to believe, but I can tell you from my own experience, it's true. Those broken pieces are the beginning of something new and different. Um, you know, it's the old image of mosaic. You make beautiful stained glass windows with broken. All sorts of things. The Japanese thing, healing the the wounds with gold. So I think the most important thing is never think you're alone, never think you're abandoned. Um, never think that somehow you've lost God because God hasn't lost you. The dark night of the soul is about sometimes going just kind of. Oh, where in the heck are you? Um. And and I need you now. And and I want you now. And, uh, and but it's the reality, and this is the trust part of it to be able to trust that the God who loves us can handle all of our anger, our bitterness, our rage, our frustration, and just hold us in the midst of all that and carry us. I think the second thing is this process of deconstructing is a process, and it is long. I've been at it for intentionally for over thirty five years. And I have to say, I am so thankful that I took the invitation. When Gandalf came through. And I can't imagine where I would be without that. And yet, I also realized that there were times, and I was blessed time and time again, to have people in my life who simply came alongside and didn't force me to do anything. They just loved me and walked with me. So I think the other thing is to find someone, be it a spiritual director or a friend, a spiritual friend, a colleague, someone who's who is thinking deep more deeply about your life and your journey than just your career or your family is important. Those those things are, but it's really kind of allowing the spirit within them to listen to the spirit within you. I think the most important thing is just to recognize that, and this is comes out of the reformed tradition then. And this is one of those Non-evangelical things because we have infant baptism. I remember one time I did a baptism and the child was just screaming and yelling like crazy and having a fit. And because, you know, I mean, there's this guy with this black robe picking this kid up and you know, what do you think's going to happen? And I remember turning, I think it was a journey church. I turned to the congregation and this little guy is just having a fit, scared to death. And I said, this is how all of us come into the kingdom of God, scared to death and all the kicking and screaming in the world. This little infant is not going to stop me one bit from putting the the baptism of grace and the mark of Christ on this life. And then this child lives in that covenant of grace forever. Forever. Uh, some point down the line confirmation. They it becomes their story. But prior to that, it's the community of faith story. It's their parents story. It's the recognition that we are children of the covenant. Nobody's working at our fulfillment and meaning and purpose more than God. If we can hear that, understand that and embrace that, I think we can kind of breathe a bit more, relax a little bit more, and not be so judgmental and so tough on ourselves. And I gotta tell you, I'm, I'm really skilled at self-judgment. I could do that really well. And that's been the greatest change in my life is to be able to kind of come to a place of going.

00:47:21 Jeromy Johnson: It's okay.

00:47:22 Del Burnett: Yeah, the old del would have been really hard on me. Now it's like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna listen to what, what the Spirit's saying because it's, it's much more redemptive, much more empowering than anything I could ever say.

00:47:35 Jeromy Johnson: Del. Thank you. I really appreciate you coming on. I appreciate connecting with you again, brother.

00:47:40 Del Burnett: I'm honored.

00:47:41 Jeromy Johnson: Tell Donna hi everyone else, but thank you for for hopping on. I know you don't do this every day, but I just thought, you know, I want to bring someone from my past. I don't know who really, at a certain time, just. We intersected. We crossed roads for a brief period. But it was one of those ricochets that kind of sent me in a new direction. So appreciate you though.

00:48:01 Del Burnett: Glad for that. Thanks.

00:48:05 Jeromy Johnson: What if the goal of faith isn't certainty but transformation? What if the unraveling of your old beliefs isn't a crisis after all, but an invitation to grow? Dell reminded us today that the spiritual life is a journey inward and a journey outward. And sometimes that journey leads us through doubt, darkness, disappointment, and the painful realization that our theology might have been too small. But grace has a way of meeting us there. So wherever you are on the path today, whether your faith feels solid, shaky, or completely undone, may you have the courage to keep walking. May you discover that God is kinder than the stories you once were told. Remember to walk in grace. And if you can share that grace. See you soon.